Chapter 6 - The Sign

This is amazing to me to realize when Jesus said the preaching would have to be completed FIRST he was talking about it taking place before the persecution that Jesus was foretelling and yet even when some take their stand before governors and kings it will still be a witness. Notice what Robert King says in Chapter 6, “Please note that Jesus said that the good news had to be preached first. “First,” before what? The good news is preached to the nations first before Christians are delivered up to the courts and rulers in order to give them a final witness.”

If you look at the context in Mark Chapter 13, that is exactly the context and so is the encouragement to endure to the end.

Mark 13:9-13: “As for you, look out for yourselves. People will hand you over to local courts, and you will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them. Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first. And when they are taking you to hand you over, do not be anxious beforehand about what to say; but whatever is given you in that hour, say this, for you are not the ones speaking, but the holy spirit is. Furthermore, brother will deliver brother over to death, and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.”
 
This paragraph in Chapter 6 helps me to better understand the scriptures that speak of lawlessness:

”In each of the cited texts “lawlessness” was used in reference to spiritual corruption and hypocrisy among those who claimed to serve God. It is apparent, then, Jesus was foretelling an increasing of hypocrisy and outright apostasy in his congregation as an aspect of the sign—not an increasing of criminal activity in the world. The cooling off of the love of many and the increasing of lawlessness must occur among those who formally loved God and were faithful to him.”

Here are some scriptures that contain the term “lawlessness”.

Matthew 7:23​

And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 13:41​

The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,

Matthew 23:28​

In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 24:12​

and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.

2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.
 
Patricia said:
It is interesting indeed. Similar to something floating around in my mind. Gotta think about this a while. Aren't the 4 horseman part of the GT? And doesn't the 8th King show up and a start ruling at the end of GT and rule for the 3 1/2 yrs? 🤔
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Rather, the 8th king shows up that starts the great tribulation for 3 1/2 years.(Revelation 13:1-7) At the end of the GT, the Son of Man will immediately come on/with the clouds.(Matthew 24:29-31) The GT is the start of the appointed times of the nations where they are given authority to trample Jerusalem, Jehovah’s people.(Luke 21:24; Revelation 13:5-7)
 
This is my last commentary on ”The Sign” chapter and Brother Robert King has worded it so well I only need quote the last paragraph, which is a reminder we will need when the GT occurs.

“According to virtually every prophetic book in the Bible, the arrival of Christ will result in a massive sifting and refining of all Christians during a time of great distress. That is when the genuine sign of Christ’s presence will become evident. Afterwards, there will be an outpouring of spirit and truth that will impel the chastised and humbled to embark on an intense preaching campaign that will serve to put the world on notice that the kingdom has finally arrived — “and then the end will come.”
 
Watchman said:
A year ago nuclear war was the furthest thing from everyone's mind. Then Russia invaded Ukraine, which, of course, they were goaded into doing by the Anglo-American war planners. Now talk of the possibility of nuclear war is commonplace. What a difference a year makes.
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Boy oh boy, you can say that again, almost a year later and now we have the situation in the middle east fired up. I wonder how many more conflicts will arise?
 
SusanB said:
Here is a link to the full chapter for reading and for audio: https://jehovah-is-king.com/sign/

Robert King talks about “the sign” having a very simple central feature and it’s a statement Jesus made that we all are likely extremely familiar with at Matthew 24:7-8: “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress”. I remember hearing it explained that the events of WW1, WW2, Spanish Flu, etc were like a fingerprint, a unique set of events signaling Jesus’ enthronement with his actual presence to come. But now I see that was as much of a misdirection of what we should be expecting as how Christendom promotes Easter and the resurrection. We certainly acknowledge that Jesus was resurrected and the wonderful meaning that has for his disciples but he specifically told us to commemorate his death. It seems to be the same type of misdirection by the Watchtower to point to 1914 as being Jesus‘ enthronement when the question being asked was the sign of his presence not his enthronement. Hopefully that makes sense.

Here is a link to Chapt
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SusanB said:
er 6, both the printed chapter and the audis-king.com/sign/There's
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KevinB said:
I diverge from RK on this point. What triggers the war in heaven? The birth of the Kingdom with Christ as King. And why is it called a male child? Because it reaches maturity when the final seal is awarded the faithful remnant of anointed. Then after that the crushing begins with the destruction of Babylon. The collapse of the UN and finally the rest of the nations. Another factor to consider, the four horseman of the Apocalypse begin with Jesus riding as King followed by war foodshortages etc. I think JW's got the basics right, but the timing wrong. Perhaps a dress rehearsal ?
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Its the difference in knowing what the sign is and what the Presence is.There two different thing.What happened in 1914 was a sign .Like if your traveling from new York to LA.It tell you your destination. BUT YOUR NOT THERE YET.The presence it when you reached your destination.
 
wth said:
Its the difference in knowing what the sign is and what the Presence is.There two different thing.What happened in 1914 was a sign .Like if your traveling from new York to LA.It tell you your destination. BUT YOUR NOT THERE YET.The presence it when you reached your destination.
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I think Robert King wrote something that really hit home with me. And I’ll paraphrase. When Jesus was relating the SIGN of his presence, did he intend for his followers to identify his presence with what they learned from a history book or what they personally would be eye witnesses of just before he came?
 
For the generation that would not pass away.It would be both things they learn from history and things they would eye-witness. Because the Sign would take mutigeneration but the Presence would happen at the Reveling .A short period of time.This would be the 1260 days.Were not there yet.So in summary the Sign is one thing The Presence is another
 
wth said:
For the generation that would not pass away.It would be both things they learn from history and things they would eye-witness. Because the Sign would take mutigeneration but the Presence would happen at the Reveling .A short period of time.This would be the 1260 days.Were not there yet.So in summary the Sign is one thing The Presence is another
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I don’t agree. It sounds to me like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
 
wth said:
For the generation that would not pass away.It would be both things they learn from history and things they would eye-witness. Because the Sign would take mutigeneration but the Presence would happen at the Reveling .A short period of time.This would be the 1260 days.Were not there yet.So in summary the Sign is one thing The Presence is another
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Mankind's history has been filled with war, hunger and pestilence. So when did they see the sign? 70CE, 500CE, 700CE, etc, etc, etc, 1914, 1939...? As Robert has said on occasion; we've lived through 70 years of abject prosperity. So when did the Sign take place. It's simple. It hasn't.
 
SusanB said:
This paragraph in Chapter 6 helps me to better understand the scriptures that speak of lawlessness:

”In each of the cited texts “lawlessness” was used in reference to spiritual corruption and hypocrisy among those who claimed to serve God. It is apparent, then, Jesus was foretelling an increasing of hypocrisy and outright apostasy in his congregation as an aspect of the sign—not an increasing of criminal activity in the world. The cooling off of the love of many and the increasing of lawlessness must occur among those who formally loved God and were faithful to him.”

Here are some scriptures that contain the term “lawlessness”.

Matthew 7:23​

And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 13:41​

The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,

Matthew 23:28​

In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 24:12​

and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.

2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.
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The first time I heard a different understanding of the lawlessness mentioned in Matthew 24:12 was back in the early 1990's. It was at the book study right before the meeting a young brother was explaining what he heard happened back at Bethel when some brothers were studying the Bible alone and not using a the society's literature to guide them. When the elder showed up he quickly put the cabbash on the conversation. But the brother was saying that this lawlessness was among Jehovah's Witnesses. It made more sense to me. That should have served as a red flag but it didn't matter much to me at the time. The elder who ended the conversation said those brothers back at bethel were dismissed for apostasy. True lawlessness has to come from those who know Jehovah's righteous standards and stand in opposition to them, so those brothers were right, and dismissed on false charges.
 
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Nomex said:
I don't think that means what you think it means. ROFLOL!
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We had a CO that used that term when he was visiting (abject prosperity). He contrasted the wealth of our nation to nations he spent many years in, being a missionary. He said they lived in abject poverty while we lived in abject prosperity, so what was our excuse for not doing more.

Yes, I know it doesn't make sense but it's a play on the words and their meaning.

Besides, look at the rich. Do they really look all that happy to you? Abject Prosperity.
 
SusanB said:
I remember hearing it explained that the events of WW1, WW2, Spanish Flu, etc were like a fingerprint,
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The "blind" wannabe investigators dusted the wrong crime scene for prints. The concept is on the money but their timing is off just a bit. Not only that but 2 different scenes 10 years apart are allegedly part of the same print? Goodnight. sounds like the CIA building a case around planted incriminating evidence..
 
So what is the meaning of 1914?Did it mean anything,or was it a signal for other things to come?
 
wth said:
So what is the meaning of 1914?Did it mean anything,or was it a signal for other things to come?
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Let me ask you because this is good practice for me.

1). What are you saying happened in 1914?

2). Assuming you will say that Jesus was enthroned in heaven, then my question is, “Did Jesus tell us to be on the watch for his enthronement?“. The way I read the bible, we are to stay awake and anticipate his PRESENCE. His enthronement is mentioned in the scriptures but not in relation to the sign that was given for his disciples to take note of. Of course, he must be enthroned to begin his rulership and seal the anointed but that isn’t what we are told to be on the watch for. Do bible word search for enthronement or throne or crown and compare with presence.
 
wth said:
So what is the meaning of 1914?Did it mean anything,or was it a signal for other things to come?
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1914 was a magic trick, part of the operation of Satan. As a false angel of light, the Devil first promoted the chronology and then to make it seem like it was true he kicked off the First World War and Spanish Flu and persecuted the Bible Students. That is what Paul wrote about: "But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception."

 
SusanB said:
The entire shell game of 1914 is starting to really be clear to me that the issue of Jesus’ supposed enthronement (1914) was used to confuse the real issue, which is his presence. Wow.
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The W/T don't know what it don't know. They think the enthronement and the presence is one and the same. They have the "nation will rise against nation" etc, part right, but the wrong war. They're out by 100 years and counting. However comma while the enthronement and the presence, are strictly speaking two different events they are part of the same time period and closely connected.

Not sure when the Christ "comes alongside" the remnant", prior to the final witness or after?
 
DR75 less 1 said:
The W/T don't know what it don't know. They think the enthronement and the presence is one and the same. They have the "nation will rise against nation" etc, part right, but the wrong war. They're out by 100 years and counting. However comma while the enthronement and the presence, are strictly speaking two different events they are part of the same time period and closely connected.
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Actually though JW’s acknowledge that Jesus will physically come to abyss Satan and so they are still waiting for Jesus to come in his Kingdom to wrap things up. In my estimation, they are trying to diminish his coming for the same reason that the High Priest wanted to diminish Jesus first presence on earth, they don’t want to give up their place/position and their “nation” of followers.
 
DR75 less 1 said:
The W/T don't know what it don't know. They think the enthronement and the presence is one and the same. They have the "nation will rise against nation" etc, part right, but the wrong war. They're out by 100 years and counting. However comma while the enthronement and the presence, are strictly speaking two different events they are part of the same time period and closely connected.

Not sure when the Christ "comes alongside" the remnant", prior to the final witness or after?
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But you are correct that they apply the signs Jesus spoke of to his supposed enthronement and supposed rulership of the Kingdom because that makes them Kings now. And, by getting JW’s to pretend that they are already living in a spiritual paradise, then all they need to happen is just get rid of the wicked and no correction or tribulation for them.
 
SusanB said:
But you are correct that they apply the signs Jesus spoke of to his supposed enthronement and supposed rulership of the Kingdom because that makes them Kings now. And, by getting JW’s to pretend that they are already living in a spiritual paradise, then all they need to happen is just get rid of the wicked and no correction or tribulation for them.
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Not sure I want to be correct about their application. Although The sign Jesus spoke about that would ID his presence, also IDs his enthronement, ( or at least that he is enthroned ) since part of the sign Jesus said included "nation will rise against nation" etc. Since his enthronement comes before ww3 erupts. All the other fantasies they have about their false interpretations, I'm not interested in.
 
Sames the Devil plan in using 1914 as a false sign back fired a bit.It was that that first started the greatest Preaching work the world has every seen.I guess even Satan can make some mistakens.
 
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