In the Image of God

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
The question remains...explain to me what paradise is like Ana. If you know then tell us.
Paradise is the fulfilment of human need. It is no secret of the imagination. We have the certainty of what the bible says about it regarding all need being met. How can paradise be anything less? Adam survived for many years within such a paradise - the only thing lacking to make the paradise complete was, oddly enough, a woman! We are told that the means of existence was supplied by agricultural means. It does not matter what methodology of survival supplies those means, be it mechanical or agricultural, only that it fulfils the complete aspects of whom it is intended for. We know that Jehovah chose agriculture and built it upon those lines. Makes sense really because it regenerates itself in a self sustaining method. Mechanics can not without intervention. At least, no one has mimicked self sustaining motion as yet.

Besides the rather “in your face” clue the bible gives us, the world is full of self sustaining production of the entire Periodic table. It was also shielded from large quantities of its active force as well. One might assume then that these elements are here for our use. Jehovah certainly put them there for our use. Thus we can assume our development will include production for reasons of interest and expansion of the mind. Whether that is termed as “progress” would be debatable. I would think “interest“ would be more appropriate as progress will no longer be necessary, being supplanted instead by satisfaction in achievement. One can not progress from complete perfection can they? (Technically they can because perfection is measured by the meeting of the makers demands).

What paradise is like, no one can say which I guess is what you want to hear. But you are referring to how we will experience it, and not what it actually is. This can be explained. You might just as well ask a baby what she will do in life if you want to put paradise in a ridged box. But we do know what it will be like in our living of it besides the necessary provisions for a physical life, and that is for the fulfilment of a spiritual life - as this is what “life” is. Paradise is the complete assimilation in physical form of the spirit of our lives. You can almost taste it. We have the faculties of it, but not the perfection of it at this time. But paradise will result in a peace beyond words. A love of it that surpasses description and a fulfilment that reaches the very essence of our lives and leaves us replete in every sense. How can we be sure of this?Because we are spirit in nature. That is what life is. We are confined though to experience it in a different form, but nonetheless with the full capabilities of spiritual existence within us according to our kind. Certainly it confines us to a form, but it is there as the anointed are released from it to experience it in a different and more advantageous way, just as Jesus was elevated from his position to one higher still. But what we do know is that every need we have will be met. That is enough. Why would we want more. So yes, in answer to your question we do know what paradise will be like.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Hello Cristo, I don’t think it is possible to supply the exactitude of argument you seek. I, and many others here, seek only to ”reason” on the scripture. We cannot know for sure. Faith is a sense of unity. As with any relationship of understanding, say marriage, there is always the unspoken and ethereal bond between partners. It is not always beneficial to a relationship to uncover every nuance and secret of the other’s existence that makes them whom they are. That is generally why there is a lock on the bathroom door so to speak. If you want unquestioning obedience, and the submission and laying bare of the human soul, then join your army, but to others, we suffice on understanding the creator in the simple instructions of the bible. At present, the bible is sufficient for our needs - perfectly so, as adding to it is banned by the author.
Sad to say, there is a get-out clause in every sentence a person utters in explanation to another, should they seek to find it, and as that appears to be your need, I can do no more that leave you to it with my best wishes for your contentment in being certain in this life. It must bring a huge contentment and reassurance to you to peer into the Creator and to know Him infallibly. But be careful!! If Jehovah can mislead the governing body to the extent that Winder and his pals have no need to apologise for their mistakes, there may be something wrong with your channel of understanding too. So that you do not feel alone, I too will admit that my channel has many a crack, leak, blocked u-bend etc;. and thus I am certain of nothing but my faith. As far as understanding goes, I’m still on the starting line - I even have no idea if there were tall people knocking around after the flood as has been hotly debated of late, and so I’ll leave the greater mysteries to others.

sometimes you just got to brush the sand off your feet and move along...​

Luke10:​

5 Wherever YOU enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’+ 6 And if a friend* of peace is there, YOUR peace will rest upon him.*+ But if there is not, it will turn back to YOU.+

 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member

sometimes you just got to brush the sand off your feet and move along...​

Luke10:​

5 Wherever YOU enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’+ 6 And if a friend* of peace is there, YOUR peace will rest upon him.*+ But if there is not, it will turn back to YOU.+

I find it a bit difficult when the questions are easy to answer. Maths - now there is my nemesis! I think it’s called “dyscalculia“ - which refers to “counting badly” in Greek. They got that right! 🤣
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Paradise is the fulfilment of human need. It is no secret of the imagination. We have the certainty of what the bible says about it regarding all need being met. How can paradise be anything less? Adam survived for many years within such a paradise - the only thing lacking to make the paradise complete was, oddly enough, a woman! We are told that the means of existence was supplied by agricultural means. It does not matter what methodology of survival supplies those means, be it mechanical or agricultural, only that it fulfils the complete aspects of whom it is intended for. We know that Jehovah chose agriculture and built it upon those lines. Makes sense really because it regenerates itself in a self sustaining method. Mechanics can not without intervention. At least, no one has mimicked self sustaining motion as yet.

Besides the rather “in your face” clue the bible gives us, the world is full of self sustaining production of the entire Periodic table. It was also shielded from large quantities of its active force as well. One might assume then that these elements are here for our use. Jehovah certainly put them there for our use. Thus we can assume our development will include production for reasons of interest and expansion of the mind. Whether that is termed as “progress” would be debatable. I would think “interest“ would be more appropriate as progress will no longer be necessary, being supplanted instead by satisfaction in achievement. One can not progress from complete perfection can they? (Technically they can because perfection is measured by the meeting of the makers demands).

What paradise is like, no one can say which I guess is what you want to hear. But you are referring to how we will experience it, and not what it actually is. This can be explained. You might just as well ask a baby what she will do in life if you want to put paradise in a ridged box. But we do know what it will be like in our living of it besides the necessary provisions for a physical life, and that is for the fulfilment of a spiritual life - as this is what “life” is. Paradise is the complete assimilation in physical form of the spirit of our lives. You can almost taste it. We have the faculties of it, but not the perfection of it at this time. But paradise will result in a peace beyond words. A love of it that surpasses description and a fulfilment that reaches the very essence of our lives and leaves us replete in every sense. How can we be sure of this?Because we are spirit in nature. That is what life is. We are confined though to experience it in a different form, but nonetheless with the full capabilities of spiritual existence within us according to our kind. Certainly it confines us to a form, but it is there as the anointed are released from it to experience it in a different and more advantageous way, just as Jesus was elevated from his position to one higher still. But what we do know is that every need we have will be met. That is enough. Why would we want more. So yes, in answer to your question we do know what paradise will be like.

Isaiah gives us a depiction of paradise.​

Isaiah65:​

17 “For here I am creating new heavens+ and a new earth;+ and the former things will not be called to mind,+ neither will they come up into the heart.+ 18 But exult, YOU people,+ and be joyful forever in what I am creating.+ For here I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation.+ 19 And I will be joyful in Jerusalem and exult in my people;+ and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.”+20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place,+ neither an old man that does not fulfill his days;+ for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.+ 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy;+ and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage.+ 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be;+ and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.+ 23 They will not toil for nothing,+ nor will they bring to birth for disturbance;+ because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah,+ and their descendants with them.+ 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer;+ while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.+
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member

Isaiah gives us a depiction of paradise.​

Isaiah65:​

17 “For here I am creating new heavens+ and a new earth;+ and the former things will not be called to mind,+ neither will they come up into the heart.+ 18 But exult, YOU people,+ and be joyful forever in what I am creating.+ For here I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation.+ 19 And I will be joyful in Jerusalem and exult in my people;+ and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.”+20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place,+ neither an old man that does not fulfill his days;+ for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.+ 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy;+ and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage.+ 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be;+ and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.+ 23 They will not toil for nothing,+ nor will they bring to birth for disturbance;+ because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah,+ and their descendants with them.+ 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer;+ while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.+
It’s a beautifully plain scripture of fact is it not? And yes; “while they are yet speaking , I myself shall hear.” I think we have that now actually. It certainly feels like it if we put our ear to the ground so to speak! Thanks for the scripture - lovely.
 

Ana

Well-known member

Isaiah gives us a depiction of paradise.​

Isaiah65:​

17 “For here I am creating new heavens+ and a new earth;+ and the former things will not be called to mind,+ neither will they come up into the heart.+ 18 But exult, YOU people,+ and be joyful forever in what I am creating.+ For here I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation.+ 19 And I will be joyful in Jerusalem and exult in my people;+ and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.”+20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place,+ neither an old man that does not fulfill his days;+ for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.+ 21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy;+ and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage.+ 22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be;+ and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.+ 23 They will not toil for nothing,+ nor will they bring to birth for disturbance;+ because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah,+ and their descendants with them.+ 24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer;+ while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.+
Que culminación en negrita de la escritura de Isaías. Antes de que siquiera terminemos de realizar dichos en nuestra boca, Jehová ya tiene su respuesta.😍
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
I find it a bit difficult when the questions are easy to answer. Maths - now there is my nemesis! I think it’s called “dyscalculia“ - which refers to “counting badly” in Greek. They got that right! 🤣
I myself suffer the ill Wills of dyslexia but In order to overcome it I usually do a triple study as well as proofread it several times and yet I i still make mistakes, now math I do okay with however when it comes to Algebra I am totally lost but I suppose as long as we know 2 + 2 equal = 4 will be okay, Lol...
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Que culminación en negrita de la escritura de Isaías. Antes de que siquiera terminemos de realizar dichos en nuestra boca, Jehová ya tiene su respuesta.😍

Ana "What a bold culmination of Isaiah's writing. Before we even finish saying things in our mouths, Jehovah already has his answer.​

What a bold culmination of Isaiah's writing. Before we even finish saying things in our mouths, Jehovah already has his answer.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
Bro. Kevin, What is the point of this discussion? Your thought on too many words is very accurate. Didn't the Greeks sit around and debate topics that they thought were worth their breath? I don't know the scripture. But it was just liking to hear themselves talk, idle chatter? Robert has a topic, keeps it simple, makes his point. He doesn't go on and on about nothing. You read his stuff and are uplifted. I read some of this stuff and say what the hell is the point.

Essentially, this discussion is about fundamental truths. Fundamental truths stand as the building blocks of understanding and are the foundational elements of what knowledge exists upon. These core truths are typically unchangeable and serve as the guide stones for further interpretations and understanding. They provide a sturdy foundation on which to build upon. Rather than sand, they are the bedrock of truth and the further discovery of it.

Here are some fundamental truths:
  1. God is Love.
  2. Prior to sin, Gods creation was pure, unadulterated, and served as a reflection of the divine perfection and goodness inherent in the act of creation by Jehovah and Jesus Christ.
  3. No badness existed within creation prior to sin.
  4. Free will exists within creation as established by the ability to choose both good AND bad.
  5. Mankind only had knowledge of good prior to eating from the tree. “NOW mankind has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”
  6. Angels also only had knowledge of good prior to Satan's sin. (Although this is open to interpretation as some here believe the angels did know of bad based off of their interpretation of Gen 3:22, which goes contrary to 2 & 3)
If any of these fundamental truths are wrong, I would hope that somebody would provide insight into why and provide reasoning to support as much.

We are debating the following fundamental truth, and whether it can be called such.
  1. It is impossible to have knowledge of something that does not yet exist.



The problem arises when one interprets something that goes contrary to the information we know as fundamental truths. There are nuances that can be argued, which Barnaby and Ana are doing regarding the knowledge of something that does not yet exist. At the moment, Barnaby is positing that we have knowledge of Paradise even though it does not exist. Apparently, he does not realize that the only reason he knows about Paradise is because the story of it already exists within scripture. Thus, his entire premise is based upon preexisting knowledge. All the examples he has given are also based off of preexisting knowledge, which does nothing to prove that it IS possible to know something that does not yet exist. What he is describing is faith in something that exists, not actual knowledge of it.

Initially this thread was simply to acknowledge Jehovah's wonderful creation, and our tremendous ability to create being that we are made in his image. However, it has morphed(which most threads do) into something else completely because someone misinterpreted a scripture(I feel).

There you have it Jay, is that concise enough for you? However, I will do my best to refrain from SO many words, you are not wrong. Perhaps you should read World War three updates, or the American Economic Collapse thread if you want to be uplifted. :unsure:
 
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alan ford

Well-known member
Essentially, this discussion is about fundamental truths. Fundamental truths stand as the building blocks of understanding and are the foundational elements of what knowledge exists upon. These core truths are typically unchangeable and serve as the guide stones for further interpretations and understanding. They provide a sturdy foundation on which to build upon. Rather than sand, they are the bedrock of truth and the further discovery of it.
I think this fact was overlooked here and that's why discussion ended up where it did.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
I think this fact was overlooked here and that's why discussion ended up where it did.
Yes, most certainly. Perhaps I should have started with the fundamental truths, but that's just how threads work, they evolve over time. Although, I am certain that I also sabotaged my own thread through the use of many words. I get going and the thoughts in my head spill out. It's a process, and one that I obviously need to refine, but it's how I work things out in my head, I get them out.... Sorry everyone!

As was already mentioned, fundamental truths are the bedrock of what you and I believe. They guide the direction of knowledge and are the foundational supports to build further reasoning upon. They are a framework to understanding reality and provide insight into theoretical models and future discoveries. Typically, for the most part, they will never contradict one another. If there is a contradiction between fundamental truths, there is either incomplete knowledge, a limited perspective, or often times it is simply a matter of semantics wherein language and different terminology, and definitions, can lead to apparent conflicts that disappear upon closer examination.



It is impossible for us to know what it is like to live without sin, because we are bathed in it all our existence. Perfection to us is just a concept of a preexisting model that once existed within reality.

Regarding the angelic creation, I would imagine, prior to the sin by Satan, it would have been just as impossible for a perfect being to understand what it would be like to be...imperfect. There was no preexisting model of imperfection to even have a concept of it, as they were bathed in perfect union and harmony, reflecting Gods glory back to him through their creations since the beginning of time. Imagine please, living in a condition where eventually one asks themselves, 'What is not Good?"?

We could take that thought one step further and theoretically say, it is possible that only until God told Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree, this was the first law which could be broken since the beginning of creation. This was the first time that creation could realize 'what is not good' for themselves, as before that edict by God given to mankind, he had not given creation a choice to do bad(i'm speculating here). Essentially, the potential to do bad did not exist until he said the two words... "do NOT".

Fascinating concept but can it stand upon the fundamental truths that we know about God and creation? I'm stopping here, as I am earnestly trying to avail myself to many fewer words.
 
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evw

Well-known member
It is impossible to have knowledge of something that does not yet exist.
Not according to the Bible.....Hebrew 11 verse 1 and 3 gives here the answer. Perhaps it's wise to read and reread and maybe reread the whole chapter 11 to get the true meaning of 'knowing without seeing for yourself'? just suggesting thou.

Verse 1: 'Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.'
Verse 3: 'By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is seen has come into existence from things that are not visible.'

So where it comes down to is indeed FAITH
 

evw

Well-known member
In addition: Jehovah is the one who set the boundaries and explained them and even told what the punishment would be if the boundaries were violated.
Don't you think Adam was well informed about what death meant, seeing that animals die?
You can compare what parents do with their children; set boundaries in their home that you have to adhere to, if not, there will either be a punishment, or if you are old enough you will have to leave the house, but if you want to come back you will have to conform again to the certain boundaries.
Not my wisdom, but explained by a brother, clearly and distinctly.
 
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Cristo

Well-known member
Not according to the Bible.....Hebrew 11 verse 1 and 3 gives here the answer. Perhaps it's wise to read and reread and maybe reread the whole chapter 11 to get the true meaning of 'knowing without seeing for yourself'? just suggesting thou.

Verse 1: 'Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.'
Verse 3: 'By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is seen has come into existence from things that are not visible.'

So where it comes down to is indeed FAITH
Hi evw...yes I understand what you are saying. It seems to be a paradox in a sense, does it not? On the surface, Faith most certainly seems to prove that we can know something before it exists.

However, let me ask you, what is it that you have faith in? Whatever it is, lets say you have faith in paradise, as we have already used it within this discussion/thread. Although paradise does not exist yet, your knowledge of paradise does. Paradise already existed in the Garden of Eden before being lost. It is preexisting within your scope of knowledge. For how could you have faith in something, unless you were first aware of what to place that faith in?

Thus, it exists, or in our case preexists within our knowledge base, or scope of knowledge, and we are able to put faith into it.

There is a saying that states - "You don't know, what you don't know". Please...take a moment to consider that profound, yet very simple statement. Although it may seem redundant, the phrase is simply stating a fundamental truth in that we can only work with, what we already know. We can only put faith in something that we already know to put faith in.

Fundamental truths typically are the simplest explanation for something that is true. Perhaps that is why they can often times be so difficult to grasp. Often times, preconceived notions, bias, or more often than not, I feel that many times these are new concepts to many who have never actually considered them before, and so before they accept these as truths, they must first reason on them, and critically examine them as to what is being said. We all perceive, interpret, and internalize information in different ways, and at different speeds.

Your example of boundaries highlights the very truth of what I state. Why did Jehovah tell Adam what would happen? Why do parents tell the kids what will happen when they overstep the boundaries? Because the knowledge of the consequences did not exist prior. Thus, if they do break the boundary, they already have the preexisting knowledge of their punishment, they already know what will happen.

I certainly hope this helps you understand.
 
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evw

Well-known member
Hi evw...yes I understand what you are saying. It seems to be a paradox in a sense, does it not? On the surface, Faith most certainly seems to prove that we can know something before it exists.

However, let me ask you, what is it that you have faith in? Whatever it is, lets say you have faith in paradise, as we have already used it within this discussion/thread. Although paradise does not exist yet, your knowledge of paradise does. Paradise already existed in the Garden of Eden before being lost. It is preexisting within your scope of knowledge. For how could you have faith in something, unless you were first aware of what to place that faith in?

Thus, it exists, or in our case preexists within our knowledge base, or scope of knowledge, and we are able to put faith into it.

There is a saying that states - "You don't know, what you don't know". Please...take a moment to consider that profound, yet very simple statement. Although it may seem redundant, the phrase is simply stating a fundamental truth in that we can only work with, what we already know. We can only put faith in something that we already know to put faith in.

Fundamental truths typically are the simplest explanation for something that is true. Perhaps that is why they can often times be so difficult to grasp. Often times, preconceived notions, bias, or more often than not, I feel that many times these are new concepts to many who have never actually considered them before, and so before they accept these as truths, they must first reason on them, and critically examine them as to what is being said. We all perceive, interpret, and internalize information in different ways, and at different speeds.

Your example of boundaries highlights the very truth of what I state. Why did Jehovah tell Adam what would happen? Why do parents tell the kids what will happen when they overstep the boundaries? Because the knowledge of the consequences did not exist prior. Thus, if they do break the boundary, they already have the preexisting knowledge of their punishment, they already know what will happen.

I certainly hope this helps you understand.
First of all, forgive me if the sentence structure in English is not quite correct.
Where do I have faith in is your question; no, not in paradise and I will not mention that, even if it is just to please you in your discussion, I start from another abstract knowledge.

My faith lies solely in Jehovah! From way before I had ever heard of God and certainly never heard His name.
From a very young age I could be found outside in nature, my mother even gave me the name: street daisy. There I came to know God, His power, His omnipotence, His justice, but above all His love and His protection. And in my later hard life I have always been able to rely on that and rely unconditionally to this day and despite the gaslighting and lies of the WT, which I only really became acquainted with in my forties. But...I've still never seen God, so how can I know He exists, according to your reasoning?
Romans 1:20 gives for me the answer to that question: 'For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.'

Now I realize very well that you will use this text again to substantiate your reasoning, well so be it.

No, I had no Bible and no comparative image and I never needed one, because I knew deep in my heart, with all the misery I had to experience, that God stood high above me to protect me.
I felt every now and then, to speak with today's knowledge, as Paul states in Hebrews 11:27b like Moses 'for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible'

Knowledge must above all be concrete for you, as you yourself explained, when I asked you whether you first had to 'break your leg to know that it hurts', you said that you can show empathy, but understand what it feels like , no, because you have to experience that yourself first; your own words. I responded with a 'sad' emoticon, because it is sad not to be able to feel beyond empathy, although, as a consolation, that is still lacking by more then a few.
I feel like there is still a lot to learn about abstract knowledge; and it is precisely this knowledge that comes especially from Jehovah and Jesus; knowledge of the heart instead of the head.

You say: However, evil as a creation did not exist until Satan created it?
My question is: How do you come to the conclusion that evil is 'created'? Because Jehovah and Jesus discussed the law of obedience before creation? At least for me that is what emerges from Genesis 3:22, a law of protection out of love, like any good father will provide.
What you completely ignore, in my opinion, is the gift of free will, including freedom of choice, without these two there could be no sin and there would only be yes-men and empty-headed people.
And without both of those, there also was no need to set boundaries.

Satan did not create evil, but abused his free will and freedom of choice and thus manipulated the set boundaries through his jealousy, see Ezekiel 28:13-19 '14, 15 - I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you...'
And from that jealousy he continues to develop evil, till this day.

I hope it has become a bit clearer to you now.
Thank you for the statement you raised, it has brought me great joy to dive into it again and know that my faith has only become stronger, especially AFTER the WT.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
First of all, forgive me if the sentence structure in English is not quite correct.
Where do I have faith in is your question; no, not in paradise and I will not mention that, even if it is just to please you in your discussion, I start from another abstract knowledge.

My faith lies solely in Jehovah! From way before I had ever heard of God and certainly never heard His name.
From a very young age I could be found outside in nature, my mother even gave me the name: street daisy. There I came to know God, His power, His omnipotence, His justice, but above all His love and His protection. And in my later hard life I have always been able to rely on that and rely unconditionally to this day and despite the gaslighting and lies of the WT, which I only really became acquainted with in my forties. But...I've still never seen God, so how can I know He exists, according to your reasoning?
Romans 1:20 gives for me the answer to that question: 'For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.'

Now I realize very well that you will use this text again to substantiate your reasoning, well so be it.

No, I had no Bible and no comparative image and I never needed one, because I knew deep in my heart, with all the misery I had to experience, that God stood high above me to protect me.
I felt every now and then, to speak with today's knowledge, as Paul states in Hebrews 11:27b like Moses 'for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible'

Knowledge must above all be concrete for you, as you yourself explained, when I asked you whether you first had to 'break your leg to know that it hurts', you said that you can show empathy, but understand what it feels like , no, because you have to experience that yourself first; your own words. I responded with a 'sad' emoticon, because it is sad not to be able to feel beyond empathy, although, as a consolation, that is still lacking by more then a few.
I feel like there is still a lot to learn about abstract knowledge; and it is precisely this knowledge that comes especially from Jehovah and Jesus; knowledge of the heart instead of the head.

You say: However, evil as a creation did not exist until Satan created it?
My question is: How do you come to the conclusion that evil is 'created'? Because Jehovah and Jesus discussed the law of obedience before creation? At least for me that is what emerges from Genesis 3:22, a law of protection out of love, like any good father will provide.
What you completely ignore, in my opinion, is the gift of free will, including freedom of choice, without these two there could be no sin and there would only be yes-men and empty-headed people.
And without both of those, there also was no need to set boundaries.

Satan did not create evil, but abused his free will and freedom of choice and thus manipulated the set boundaries through his jealousy, see Ezekiel 28:13-19 '14, 15 - I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you...'
And from that jealousy he continues to develop evil, till this day.

I hope it has become a bit clearer to you now.
Thank you for the statement you raised, it has brought me great joy to dive into it again and know that my faith has only become stronger, especially AFTER the WT.
I enjoy that read / comment very much especially the part when you said "Satan did not create evil, but abused his free will and freedom of choice and thus manipulated the set boundaries through his jealousy, see Ezekiel 28:13-19 '14, 15 - I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you...'
And from that jealousy he continues to develop evil, till this day.
 

Ana

Well-known member
Especialmente después de la WT. Comparto tu especialidad.☺️En realidad si nos centramos en el verbo crear, a los ojos Dios, el pecado, mas que una creación es todo lo contrario, es la ruptura de lo establecido. Y por otro lado, tenemos ejemplos de elecciones en la Biblia hechas antes incluso que la fundación del mundo, como en Efesios 1: 3-5. Bendito sea el Dios y Padre de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, que nos bendijo con toda bendición espiritual en los lugares celestiales en Cristo, 4 según nos escogió en él antes de la fundación del mundo, para que fuésemos santos y sin mancha delante de él, 5 en amor habiéndonos predestinado para ser adoptados hijos suyos por medio de Jesucristo, según el puro afecto de su voluntad. Hay tanto que no sabemos !!
 

Cristo

Well-known member
First of all, forgive me if the sentence structure in English is not quite correct.
Where do I have faith in is your question; no, not in paradise and I will not mention that, even if it is just to please you in your discussion, I start from another abstract knowledge.
...

I want you to know evw how appreciative I am that you spent the time to write what you did. I'm being totally serious. Many here have given up on this thread, yet you stuck it out, so I thank you. Not only did you stick it out, my goodness, it ignited a spark in you. I don't think I've ever seen, or heard in your words, so much passion. That tells me I'm on the right track. As I stated earlier, the simplest concepts are the hardest to grasp, because often times they are buried under so much other stuff that sits upon them, so I hope I am able to clear some things up for you.

My faith lies solely in Jehovah! From way before I had ever heard of God and certainly never heard His name.

If Jehovah didn't exist, how would you know of him? Certainly, God has always been. For those with the ability to reason, such as yourself, you perceived through his creation that there was something more, even before you heard of God or ever heard his name, although I bet you wondered who he was didn't you?

(Ro 10:14) “. . .How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? . . .”​
Evw, everything you speak of already existed in order for you to put faith that there was a God. Thats what the scripture you provide is all about is it not? That through the things that already exist, you can perceive his invisible qualities. Had those things not already existed, how could you ever perceive it to be so? Thus, because they already exist you knew there was something more. This does nothing to disprove that 'it is impossible to know something that does not exist', but rather highlights the very truth within that statement.

Faith and knowledge, or to know something, are two distinct concepts yet share many common qualities with one another. They both involve belief or acceptance of something. They both can shape a person's worldview and play an influence in decision making. However, where faith is the assured expectation of things not yet seen, knowledge is the understanding of things gained through observation or experience. I understand the nuances these two concepts share, but you must acknowledge that the two are different.

The only reason you can have faith and knowledge of God, is because he already exists.



The scriptures provide a perfect example of the very truth I speak about, in the story of Abraham and his son Isaac, when Jehovah told Abraham to offer his son up for a sacrifice. Most certainly Jehovah had faith in Abraham, I'm sure all would agree, but he did not know or have knowledge yet of the loyalty that Abraham had. Once Abraham lifted the knife to sacrifice Isaac the angel stopped him, and this is what Jehovah said:

(Ge 22:12) “. . .for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me. . .”​
Although Jehovah is omniscient, or all knowing, when it comes to free will, and the choices we make, even he does not know what choice we will make, until we make them. Why? Because we must first create the choice and do it. Until our choice exists as an actual action/creation he does not know. And in this case, Abrahams god-fearing loyalty was not known until Jehovah saw Abraham create the choice to bring the knife down.

This example underscores the very truth I am trying to convey to you, and the forum.

Adam & Eves decision is also another perfect example to highlight the fact that it is impossible to know something that does not yet exist. Did Jehovah already know they would eat the fruit? No, because they had not made the decision to do it yet. Their decision, or choice, did not exist prior to them making/creating it.

My question is: How do you come to the conclusion that evil is 'created'?

Certainly, you believe that evil exists. Evil did not exist prior to sin; therefore, it must have been created. It does seem an easy conclusion to come to. However, how some here actually believe that evil did exist prior to sin is truly beyond me.

Nevertheless, everything you do is a creation evw. EVERYTHING!!! The first post of this thread covers this. There is nothing you do that is not a creation, or a direct result of one. Heart beating, lungs breathing, seeing, hearing, touching, feeling, thinking, doing, are ALL creations, or the result of a creation manifesting. You must understand this, as this too is a fundamental truth!

Many of those creations are subconscious, you do not need to think about them in order to create, they just do to keep you alive. However, we have been given the ability to create a thought and bring it into existence through our actions. Every action is a creation that has manifested through the individual.

Love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness...etc the fruitages of the spirit exist naturally within creation because they naturally exist as part of Jehovah from where we get our spirit. There is no law for these, because they are natural, and when we form(create) a thought and manifest it as an action, it can either reflect these fruitages of the spirit, or in the case of evil blocks it from reflecting.

The opposite of love, joy, peace, etc...is hate, sadness, conflict etc...and these things too are fruitages of our creations if we allow them to manifest into reality somehow. However, there is law for these because they cause disharmony within creation, they are not natural, and those things must be destroyed because they go contrary to Gods purpose.

When Satan made/created the thought to go contrary to Gods purpose, and manifest that creation into reality through his action, he created evil. His action of lying to Eve was sourced from his desire to be like God and was first made(created) within his mind.

When you 'make' your mind up, the very word 'make' is describing what you are doing. To 'make' is to 'create', thus you create your mind up, or rather you create within your mind something you wish to manifest somehow. Somebody who is stubborn and has 'made' their mind up, who has built a wall, displays pride, and arrogance, haughtiness, etc... because those are the fruitages manifesting from what they have 'made/created' in their mind. We manifest our creations into existence when we display the characteristics/fruitages of that creation.

Your post has more I would like to cover, but for now, for the sake of keeping my words to a tolerable level for the forum, maybe in another post we can discuss them. This answer is already quite long indeed.
 
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Cristo

Well-known member
The story of Cain and Abel is another example of that which I speak.

After the two men brought their offerings to God, Cain was upset that Jehovah did not look with any favor upon his offering. Cain became hot with anger and Jehovah came to him and said "Why are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?”” (Gen 4:6-7)

Jehovah gave Cain advice and told him both scenarios of his actions. If Cain chose to doing good, if he made(create) up in his mind to have patience, meekness, love he would receive an exaltation. However, if he turned to bad, or allowed his mind to create a wrong desire and acted upon it, sin, the creation of evil was crouching at the door.

Obviously prior to Cain murdering Abel, Jehovah did not know which way Cain would choose, for what would be the point of telling him the consequence of choosing good, if he already knew that Cain was going to kill his brother?

Why didn't Jehovah know? Because it is impossible to know something that does not exist yet, that has not been created yet, that does not yet have objective reality or being. Cains action killing his brother did not exist yet.

God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them. Of course he can read hearts, he can have faith that one will do what he thinks they will do, but only until the creation of the thought manifests into reality, can he know it. Once Cain created in his mind the desire to kill his brother, and allowed it to manifest, only then did that creation exist within reality.
 

Still Here

Active member
The story of Cain and Abel is another example of that which I speak.

After the two men brought their offerings to God, Cain was upset that Jehovah did not look with any favor upon his offering. Cain became hot with anger and Jehovah came to him and said "Why are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?”” (Gen 4:6-7)

Jehovah gave Cain advice and told him both scenarios of his actions. If Cain chose to doing good, if he made(create) up in his mind to have patience, meekness, love he would receive an exaltation. However, if he turned to bad, or allowed his mind to create a wrong desire and acted upon it, sin, the creation of evil was crouching at the door.

Obviously prior to Cain murdering Abel, Jehovah did not know which way Cain would choose, for what would be the point of telling him the consequence of choosing good, if he already knew that Cain was going to kill his brother?

Why didn't Jehovah know? Because it is impossible to know something that does not exist yet, that has not been created yet, that does not yet have objective reality or being. Cains action killing his brother did not exist yet.

God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them. Of course he can read hearts, he can have faith that one will do what he thinks they will do, but only until the creation of the thought manifests into reality, can he know it. Once Cain created in his mind the desire to kill his brother, and allowed it to manifest, only then did that creation exist within reality.
I've been half listening/reading this debate. One question. If as you say,

"Why didn't Jehovah know? Because it is impossible to know something that does not exist yet, that has not been created yet, that does not yet have objective reality or being. Cains action killing his brother did not exist yet.
God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them. Of course he can read hearts, he can have faith that one will do what he thinks they will do, but only until the creation of the thought manifests into reality, can he know it. Once Cain created in his mind the desire to kill his brother, and allowed it to manifest, only then did that creation exist within reality."

Explain Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Was Jacob manifesting reality in the womb?
 
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