Mail Bag Question - What is the end?

[Cristo]

Faith appears to to be judged relative to the persons insight into the term, faith. The bible says that “one will not be tested beyond his endurance. Therefore endurance is the measure by which we will be judged. This may be due in part to spiritual frailties, because (correct me if I’m wrong) we are tested as to our proclivities, and also in our values inasmuch as we value for instance, our lives, and again, by our attributes of the spirit….love…justice…generosity etc., etc. Thus we see that learning and knowledge are outweighed by love and selflessness, sacrifice, adherence to spiritual values. These can certainly be enhanced by knowledge, but if the truth is not in us, then that knowledge is the limit of our endurance, for we will sell ourselves to satiate our particular need…thus was Jesus tempted by a mere loaf of bread. The illustration being of course, that how on earth would Christ have survived his death on the torture stake, if he would preserve his life for a mouthful of bread? Even then, Jesus asked for the test to be removed from him, but only if by Jehovah‘s will. Thus what else, other than love, and the faith that is inspired by love, could have seen him though? Pro-rata then to our attributes and our love, will we be tested. Each of us has our own limit and that limit is only discernible by Jesus and Jehovah. As to remaining faithful, we must all of us be prepared for the ultimate test that Jesus took upon himself. When we have resolved to do the same, then we can be tested no further than that. And if that is what it takes, let us resolve now to endure it in faith.
Thus if you acquire that faith now, then you need not worry further over how to achieve it But to endure it. This in itself is resolved in part by asking ourselves the simple question, do I really want to live in this world? In our frail and doubting mind, that is a pertinent question to resolve within ourselves as soon as possible. However, it is not the real question pertaining to love and faith and thus misses the point entirely. The real question to ask ourselves is how much we love our creator, his son, and his righteousness, love, justice peace and happiness. His principles, his guidance, the beauty of his spirit.
We do not serve Jehovah to get out of this system, but to serve him because of what he actually is. Imagine if you had a dog that decided to live with you simply because it was better than the street. Thus to remain faithful, we have to learn to love the attributes of Jehovah and to take that in to the full. We are each given this ability and thus our faith is inextricably bound in its measure, to become within ourselves - our own nature - to the true absorption of His spirit and for it to be genuinely of our own making according to the gifts of insight given us.

Barnaby that was a great answer...glad you are here. I feel much of what you said is in this:

“. . .Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt YOU in due time; 7 while YOU throw all YOUR anxiety upon him, because he cares for YOU. 8 Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone]. 9 But take YOUR stand against him, solid in the faith, knowing that the same things in the way of sufferings are being accomplished in the entire association of YOUR brothers in the world. 10 But, after YOU have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called YOU to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish YOUR training, he will make YOU firm, he will make YOU strong. 11 To him be the might forever. Amen.” 1Pe 5:6-11

 

[Maskita]

I am not sure about other languages, but in English, Paul makes the point that Enoch 'did not see death,' in distinction to all other mortals who have 'passed on;' therefore his point would be moot if he died just like everybody else.

This 'change' or 'transference' of Enoch I see as a type of what will happen with the anointed who survive in the flesh to see Jesus coming on the clouds in power and glory, where they too will be 'changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,' without ever having 'seen death.'

There seem to be three 'modes' of undergoing physical death: 'Normal' death, perhaps involving pain and suffering, but without being forsaken by God, which most people, including godless ones, seem to undergo, then, the unique experience of Enoch 'not seeing death, and third, facing God's wrath, typically applying to beast worshipers at Armageddon.

On your point of anointed ones 'surviving during Christ's presence,' I can't find that in Scripture, but Paul has those 'who survive to the [start of the] presence of the Lord,' which commences immediately after the end of the 42 month long great tribulation, during which the anointed will preach as the two witnesses, and at the end of which 'some' of the anointed will be put to death, according to Jesus. 1 Thes 4;15; Lu 21:16

Isn't Enoch still technically dead, though? He might not have died normally, but he's still not alive after God took him. As for the anointed, do you mean when the chosen ones are sealed, after some point in time, God just takes them like he did Enoch? They just dissolve or something? God did that with Moses' body too. Of course, he was already dead by then, but still. God can do that. Or did Enoch never die at all? Maybe he's like the first time traveler and we'll catch up to him soon. No. That's silly. He's definitely dead.

 

[Jackie]

@ Robert:



I can’t see how ‘ the anointed will all be killed during the time of the end’ in view of Paul saying that ‘we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord,’ which means to His ‘coming on the clouds’ to ‘gather together the chosen ones’ – both the ‘survivors’ and those ‘asleep in death’ – to ‘be caught away together in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,’ and thus, from thereon, always to be present with Him. 1 Thes 4:16,17; Mat 24:29-31



Similarly, Jesus, in talking about the time of the end, said that ‘they will put some of you to death,’ hence, not even most of the anointed, just as He instructs us to ‘all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things – including death – that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man,’ in the flesh, when He arrives immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Lu 21:16,36

1 Cor 15:51 says “I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed.” It sounds like the apostle Paul is saying that not all will ‘die’ but will be changed similar to when Jesus’ life was transferred to earth but then again maybe Paul was emphasizing the ‘falling asleep’ aspect of death of being in the grave for any real length of time since they will be changed in a blink of an eye.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Barnaby that was a great answer...glad you are here. I feel much of what you said is in this:

“. . .Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt YOU in due time; 7 while YOU throw all YOUR anxiety upon him, because he cares for YOU. 8 Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone]. 9 But take YOUR stand against him, solid in the faith, knowing that the same things in the way of sufferings are being accomplished in the entire association of YOUR brothers in the world. 10 But, after YOU have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called YOU to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish YOUR training, he will make YOU firm, he will make YOU strong. 11 To him be the might forever. Amen.” 1Pe 5:6-11

That certainly is a good scripture to bear in mind! That’s for sure!

 

[Posstot]

Isn't Enoch still technically dead, though? He might not have died normally, but he's still not alive after God took him. As for the anointed, do you mean when the chosen ones are sealed, after some point in time, God just takes them like he did Enoch? They just dissolve or something? God did that with Moses' body too. Of course, he was already dead by then, but still. God can do that. Or did Enoch never die at all? Maybe he's like the first time traveler and we'll catch up to him soon. No. That's silly. He's definitely dead.

Yes, he is not living now, but was 'transferred' there without 'seeing death,' which I take as a euphemism for being spared any unpleasantness that might otherwise accompany people's demise.

According to Paul, both 'sleeping' as well as surviving anointed ones will be 'changed' and then together caught away into heaven at the public coming of Jesus on the clouds of heaven in power and glory immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Mat 24:29-3; 1 Thes 4:15,16; 1 Co 15:51,52

I am interested if anyone can offer an alternative interpretation of these three texts, since they all deal with the same thing.

 

[Jackie]

It should be self-evident that the good news will not be preached during the world’s greatest time of trouble. So, the good news is preached and then the end will come means the end of the preaching of the good news. But that is not the end of the system. We know that because there is to be a harvest period. And Jesus said the harvest was the conclusion of the system.

I also thought Jesus meant the end of this system since he was answering the question about the conclusion of the system of things but you point out that Jesus was actually referring to the end of the preaching work. Wow thank you, Robert for this new insight.

 

[Posstot]

1 Cor 15:51 says “I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed.” It sounds like the apostle Paul is saying that not all will ‘die’ but will be changed similar to when Jesus’ life was transferred to earth but then again maybe Paul was emphasizing the ‘falling asleep’ aspect of death of being in the grave for any real length of time since they will be changed in a blink of an eye.

Yes, they will leave their earthly existence and body behind and instantly resume life as immortal spirit beings when Jesus publicly manifests Himself on the clouds in power and glory immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Mat 24:29-31; 1Jno 3:2

 

[Maskita]

Yes, he is not living now, but was 'transferred' there without 'seeing death,' which I take as a euphemism for being spared any unpleasantness that might otherwise accompany people's demise.

According to Paul, both 'sleeping' as well as surviving anointed ones will be 'changed' and then together caught away into heaven at the public coming of Jesus on the clouds of heaven in power and glory immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Mat 24:29-3; 1 Thes 4:15,16; 1 Co 15:51,52

I am interested if anyone can offer an alternative interpretation of these three texts, since they all deal with the same thing.

Makes sense to me. Having to see death implies we are faced with it, like dying of cancer or falling off a building or dying in war. As for the anointed, is it possible to be changed in a lesser way before they die? Because isn't there a period of time where the chosen ones give a final witness? That occurs after the tribulation is cut short and the 8th King emerges, right?

 

[Posstot]

I also thought Jesus meant the end of this system since he was answering the question about the conclusion of the system of things but you point out that Jesus was actually referring to the end of the preaching work. Wow thank you, Robert for this new insight.

I don't think we are meant to conceive of the harvest as a drawn out period, the reason being that, although Jesus says that the harvest is the conclusion of the system of things, He also told us that He will be with us 'all the days until the conclusion of the system of things,' meaning that He will not be with us in spirit any longer at the start of the conclusion of the system - as he was during the past 2000 years - but that His coming on the clouds of heaven will be the start of the conclusion of the system, when the anointed will join Him in person as glorified spirit beings.

 

[Maskita]

I don't think we are meant to conceive of the harvest as a drawn out period, the reason being that, although Jesus says that the harvest is the conclusion of the system of things, He also told us that He will be with us 'all the days until the conclusion of the system of things,' meaning that He will not be with us in spirit any longer at the start of the conclusion of the system - as he was during the past 2000 years - but that His coming on the clouds of heaven will be the start of the conclusion of the system, when the anointed will join Him in person as glorified spirit beings.

I definitely believe we may have to go through a period where it feels like God has left us. Jesus even asked his father why he forsook him, so that might be something a lot of us go through. Not just the chosen. We all might hit some low points. Although eventually Christ will be with his people in an extraordinary way. I suppose that's what you mean by "at the start of the conclusion." I feel like I disagree with something here but I don't really know what it is. LOL.

 

[TheJehuChariot]

I also thought Jesus meant the end of this system since he was answering the question about the conclusion of the system of things but you point out that Jesus was actually referring to the end of the preaching work. Wow thank you, Robert for this new insight.

Mark 13:10

 

[Posstot]

is it possible to be changed in a lesser way before they die? Because isn't there a period of time where the chosen ones give a final witness?

Not the way Paul uses the term 'changed,' it having the meaning of giving up one's human existence, which I cannot see as applying to the two witnesses during their preaching.

Sure, Jesus told us that during this time we ought not to worry about what to say, since the Holy Spirit will then take over and speak through us directly, but that is not the same as ceasing to exist in the flesh, as the two witnesses no doubt will still be human during their prophesying.

This prophesying and witnessing has got to be done before Jesus comes on the clouds in power and glory, because then all the tribes of the earth will become eye witnesses of Jesus, and by extension will be turned into Jehovah's witnesses as well, even if this means their eternal destruction, because everybody 'will have to know that I am Jehovah,' says Jehovah. Mat 24:30; 2 Pe 1:16

When Jesus comes on the clouds of heaven in power and glory at the start of His parousia, the whole world will 'become eye witnesses of His magnificence.' 2 Pe 1:16

 

[Maskita]

Not the way Paul uses the term 'changed,' it having the meaning of giving up one's human existence, which I cannot see as applying to the two witnesses during their preaching.

Sure, Jesus told us that during this time we ought not to worry about what to say, since the Holy Spirit will then take over and speak through us directly, but that is not the same as ceasing to exist in the flesh, as the two witnesses no doubt will still be human during their prophesying.

This prophesying and witnessing has got to be done before Jesus comes on the clouds in power and glory, because then all the tribes of the earth will become eye witnesses of Jesus, and by extension will be turned into Jehovah's witnesses as well, even if this means their eternal destruction, because everybody 'will have to know that I am Jehovah,' says Jehovah. Mat 24:30; 2 Pe 1:16

When Jesus comes on the clouds of heaven in power and glory at the start of His parousia, the whole world will 'become eye witnesses of His magnificence.' 2 Pe 1:16

So how much time would you say passes between Christ coming in the clouds with great power and armageddon. Isn't there a 42 months period of time in there somewhere?

 

[Posstot]

I definitely believe we may have to go through a period where it feels like God has left us. Jesus even asked his father why he forsook him,

Perhaps you mean the 'hour of test that is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth;' but even then, Jesus assured us that He will keep us from this because of our keeping the word about His endurance, and as He also instructed us to pray in the Lord's prayer to not be led into temptation to follow the wild beast with admiration when it imitates His kingdom in the near future - have no fear. Re 3:10; Mat 6:13

 

[Maskita]

Perhaps you mean the 'hour of test that is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth;' but even then, Jesus assured us that He will keep us from this because of our keeping the word about His endurance, and as He also instructed us to pray in the Lord's prayer to not be led into temptation to follow the wild beast with admiration when it imitates His kingdom in the near future - have no fear. Re 3:10; Mat 6:13

I certainly hope Jehovah conceals me somewhere during his hour of anger. He did say maybe we will be concealed on that day. If that happens, great! I would prefer to not endure the brunt of that, if possible. But nevertheless, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to bank on skating through the end times unscathed. Something about thinking I'll be perfectly fine while everyone else suffers doesn't feel right. It reminds me of the rapture proponents. Don't get me wrong. I believe God will protect his people, and he probably will keep them from certain extremes, at least as a whole. But everyone has a different situation. What does it even mean to be with us or to conceal us? We might think we know what it means, but do we really? That's why I'm careful about these things. It's too easy to set up false expectations. If it is God's will for me to be protected, great. If it's God's will I have to suffer, so be it.

 

[Posstot]

Mark 13:10

The 'good news being preached first' seems to have reference to verse 8, which is a pericope - and indicated as such in all three gospels by forming a separate paragraph - that is best explicated in its equivalent passage in Luke 21:10,11, where verse 12 then specifies that: 'but before all these things,' - and we might need to let this sink in a bit - because this implies that before 'nation rises against nation,' and hence, after the end of what is described in verse 12-19, namely, the great tribulation - so before Jesus comes on the clouds of heaven, the 'good news has got to be preached first,' thus corroborating that the preaching of the two witnesses needs to happen before the arrival of Jesus.

 

[Posstot]

I certainly hope Jehovah conceals me somewhere during his hour of anger. He did say maybe we will be concealed on that day. If that happens, great! I would prefer to not endure the brunt of that, if possible. But nevertheless, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to bank on skating through the end times unscathed. Something about thinking I'll be perfectly fine while everyone else suffers doesn't feel right. It reminds me of the rapture proponents. Don't get me wrong. I believe God will protect his people, and he probably will keep them from certain extremes, at least as a whole. But everyone has a different situation. What does it even mean to be with us or to conceal us? We might think we know what it means, but do we really? That's why I'm careful about these things. It's too easy to set up false expectations. If it is God's will for me to be protected, great. If it's God's will I have to suffer, so be it.

At least we know what and Who we are suffering for, even now, while suffering without purpose is unbearable to those for whom there is no God.

There is a greater power than fear to motivate us when persecuted - and I mean quite apart from love - namely, righteous indignation: How dare they rise up against Jehovah and His Anointed One, whom we represent here on earth?

 

[Posstot]

So how much time would you say passes between Christ coming in the clouds with great power and armageddon. Isn't there a 42 months period of time in there somewhere?

Unlike Robert, I cannot see any purpose for a suspension of Jesus taking immediate action against the beast worshiping tribes of the earth who will then beat themselves in lamentation at having been undone by buying into the wrong 'messiah and his kingdom,' which is not to say that Armageddon will not take some time as well, but during which no harm will come to any of those having survived the great tribulation.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Yes, he is not living now, but was 'transferred' there without 'seeing death,' which I take as a euphemism for being spared any unpleasantness that might otherwise accompany people's demise.

According to Paul, both 'sleeping' as well as surviving anointed ones will be 'changed' and then together caught away into heaven at the public coming of Jesus on the clouds of heaven in power and glory immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Mat 24:29-3; 1 Thes 4:15,16; 1 Co 15:51,52

I am interested if anyone can offer an alternative interpretation of these three texts, since they all deal with the same thing.

I’m probably being simplistic in something I know nothing about, but the critical word here is surely ”changed”., ergo, one from death to spirit life, the other from physical being into spirit.

 

[jorn]

Yes, he is not living now, but was 'transferred' there without 'seeing death,' which I take as a euphemism for being spared any unpleasantness that might otherwise accompany people's demise.

According to Paul, both 'sleeping' as well as surviving anointed ones will be 'changed' and then together caught away into heaven at the public coming of Jesus on the clouds of heaven in power and glory immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Mat 24:29-3; 1 Thes 4:15,16; 1 Co 15:51,52

I am interested if anyone can offer an alternative interpretation of these three texts, since they all deal with the same thing.

These three texts are very interesting.
But we should be more concerned about this:Matt 24:23-28.
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.25 Look! I have forewarned you.26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.