Mail Bag Question - What is the end?

Watchman

Watchman

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QUESTION: At Matthew 24:13 Jesus said the one who endures to the end will be saved. What is the end, and saved from what and when, and why would this statement precede what is recorded in the next verse, where Jesus said the good news will be preached in all the world and then the end will come?
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The end can mean different things. Enduring to the end may mean faithfully enduring until the end of our life. That is surely the case with those who are anointed who will all be killed during the time of the end. Jesus said of them that not even a hair on their head will perish. What does that mean? That God will preserve them even into death if they are faithful.

It should be self-evident that the good news will not be preached during the world’s greatest time of trouble. So, the good news is preached and then the end will come means the end of the preaching of the good news. But that is not the end of the system. We know that because there is to be a harvest period. And Jesus said the harvest was the conclusion of the system.

Contrary to what the Watchtower teaches, the preaching and the harvest do not run concurrently. First, the good news is preached. Then it will end. Then begins the brief period of the harvest. By enduring without compromise during the time of the end we will be saved, either by means of the resurrection or by being allowed entry into the secret place of the Most High.
 
MickHewitt said:
You mean who may ascend the mountain of Jehovah? Ps 24:3. vs 4 gives us the answer, vs6: I believe is our generation!
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i don’t know if i have ever not taken an oath deceitfully. If that means broken promises, yea i have broke promises. I’ve even promised things knowing i would break it. or probably break it. but i am sorry for it and i won’t do that again.
 
Watchman said:
The end can mean different things. Enduring to the end may mean faithfully enduring until the end of our life. That is surely the case with those who are anointed who will all be killed during the time of the end. Jesus said of them that not even a hair on their head will perish. What does that mean? That God will preserve them even into death if they are faithful.

It should be self-evident that the good news will not be preached during the world’s greatest time of trouble. So, the good news is preached and then the end will come means the end of the preaching of the good news. But that is not the end of the system. We know that because there is to be a harvest period. And Jesus said the harvest was the conclusion of the system.

Contrary to what the Watchtower teaches, the preaching and the harvest do not run concurrently. First, the good news is preached. Then it will end. Then begins the brief period of the harvest. By enduring without compromise during the time of the end we will be saved, either by means of the resurrection or by being allowed entry into the secret place of the Most High.
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@ Robert:



I can’t see how ‘ the anointed will all be killed during the time of the end’ in view of Paul saying that ‘we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord,’ which means to His ‘coming on the clouds’ to ‘gather together the chosen ones’ – both the ‘survivors’ and those ‘asleep in death’ – to ‘be caught away together in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,’ and thus, from thereon, always to be present with Him. 1 Thes 4:16,17; Mat 24:29-31



Similarly, Jesus, in talking about the time of the end, said that ‘they will put some of you to death,’ hence, not even most of the anointed, just as He instructs us to ‘all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things – including death – that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man,’ in the flesh, when He arrives immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Lu 21:16,36
 
Posstot said:
@ Robert:



I can’t see how ‘ the anointed will all be killed during the time of the end’ in view of Paul saying that ‘we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord,’ which means to His ‘coming on the clouds’ to ‘gather together the chosen ones’ – both the ‘survivors’ and those ‘asleep in death’ – to ‘be caught away together in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,’ and thus, from thereon, always to be present with Him. 1 Thes 4:16,17; Mat 24:29-31



Similarly, Jesus, in talking about the time of the end, said that ‘they will put some of you to death,’ hence, not even most of the anointed, just as He instructs us to ‘all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things – including death – that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man,’ in the flesh, when He arrives immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Lu 21:16,36
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good points all.
 
a watcher said:
By remaining obedient to Jehovah, Jesus, and the Bible to the best of your ability.
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Exactly a watcher. Follow Jesus footsteps closely. He spent time fortifying himself and helping others both with what he could do for them immediately but more important teaching them from God’s word and pointing out the error of the Pharisees. And, I should add remaining faithful to Jehovah and not giving into sin.
 
Posstot said:
@ Robert:



I can’t see how ‘ the anointed will all be killed during the time of the end’ in view of Paul saying that ‘we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord,’ which means to His ‘coming on the clouds’ to ‘gather together the chosen ones’ – both the ‘survivors’ and those ‘asleep in death’ – to ‘be caught away together in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,’ and thus, from thereon, always to be present with Him. 1 Thes 4:16,17; Mat 24:29-31



Similarly, Jesus, in talking about the time of the end, said that ‘they will put some of you to death,’ hence, not even most of the anointed, just as He instructs us to ‘all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things – including death – that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man,’ in the flesh, when He arrives immediately after the end of the great tribulation. Lu 21:16,36
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I probably should not even attempt to respond to this, but I think that all the anointed must be in heaven when Armageddon happens because they will all participate in that war against Satan and his corrupt system. At least that is my understanding.
 
Driven said:
I probably should not even attempt to respond to this, but I think that all the anointed must be in heaven when Armageddon happens because they will all participate in that war against Satan and his corrupt system. At least that is my understanding.
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Right, I agree with your point, but referring to the 'change' in the 'twinkling of an eye' of the anointed ones who 'survive' to the return of Christ 'immediately after' the end of the great tribulation as getting 'killed' is not the right term, unless you are also prepared to say that Jehovah killed Enoch, of whom it is said that God 'transferred' him so as 'not to see death,' whereas killing implies death to me. 1 Co 15:51; Mat 24:29-31; Heb 11:5

Feel free to respond at any time to anything; I will tell you my opinion on your take, not your person, because most of our ideas are not original to us anyway, for better or worse.
 
Posstot said:
Right, I agree with your point, but referring to the 'change' in the 'twinkling of an eye' of the anointed ones who 'survive' to the return of Christ 'immediately after' the end of the great tribulation as getting 'killed' is not the right term, unless you are also prepared to say that Jehovah killed Enoch, of whom it is said that God 'transferred' him so as 'not to see death,' whereas killing implies death to me. 1 Co 15:51; Mat 24:29-31; Heb 11:5

Feel free to respond at any time to anything; I will tell you my opinion on your take, not your person, because most of our ideas are not original to us anyway, for better or worse.
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those who go to heaven their body must die either assassinated or killed in another way ... that is what Paul spoke about when explaining the heavenly resurrection by comparing a seed with what grows after it ... as to the anointed ones who survive during The presence is the two witnesses dressed in sackcloths who give testimony and the apocalypse says that they are murdered ... as for Enoch I did not understand well what you are saying ... you say that Enoch did not die but was transformed into another form of life and is he still there somewhere or that Jehovah did not kill him but made him sleep without pain or suffering in death?
 
Asadour said:
i don’t know if i have ever not taken an oath deceitfully. If that means broken promises, yea i have broke promises. I’ve even promised things knowing i would break it. or probably break it. but i am sorry for it and i won’t do that again.
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The blood of Christ takes away the burden of worrying of all that , SO LONG as you never stop "trying" to be faithful in holy activity.
 
JulioG said:
those who go to heaven their body must die either assassinated or killed in another way ... that is what Paul spoke about when explaining the heavenly resurrection by comparing a seed with what grows after it ... as to the anointed ones who survive during The presence is the two witnesses dressed in sackcloths who give testimony and the apocalypse says that they are murdered ... as for Enoch I did not understand well what you are saying ... you say that Enoch did not die but was transformed into another form of life and is he still there somewhere or that Jehovah did not kill him but made him sleep without pain or suffering in death?
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I am not sure about other languages, but in English, Paul makes the point that Enoch 'did not see death,' in distinction to all other mortals who have 'passed on;' therefore his point would be moot if he died just like everybody else.

This 'change' or 'transference' of Enoch I see as a type of what will happen with the anointed who survive in the flesh to see Jesus coming on the clouds in power and glory, where they too will be 'changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,' without ever having 'seen death.'

There seem to be three 'modes' of undergoing physical death: 'Normal' death, perhaps involving pain and suffering, but without being forsaken by God, which most people, including godless ones, seem to undergo, then, the unique experience of Enoch 'not seeing death, and third, facing God's wrath, typically applying to beast worshipers at Armageddon.

On your point of anointed ones 'surviving during Christ's presence,' I can't find that in Scripture, but Paul has those 'who survive to the [start of the] presence of the Lord,' which commences immediately after the end of the 42 month long great tribulation, during which the anointed will preach as the two witnesses, and at the end of which 'some' of the anointed will be put to death, according to Jesus. 1 Thes 4;15; Lu 21:16
 
Posstot said:
I am not sure about other languages, but in English, Paul makes the point that Enoch 'did not see death,' in distinction to all other mortals who have 'passed on;' therefore his point would be moot if he died just like everybody else.

This 'change' or 'transference' of Enoch I see as a type of what will happen with the anointed who survive in the flesh to see Jesus coming on the clouds in power and glory, where they too will be 'changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,' without ever having 'seen death.'

There seem to be three 'modes' of undergoing physical death: 'Normal' death, perhaps involving pain and suffering, but without being forsaken by God, which most people, including godless ones, seem to undergo, then, the unique experience of Enoch 'not seeing death, and third, facing God's wrath, typically applying to beast worshipers at Armageddon.

On your point of anointed ones 'surviving during Christ's presence,' I can't find that in Scripture, but Paul has those 'who survive to the [start of the] presence of the Lord,' which commences immediately after the end of the 42 month long great tribulation, during which the anointed will preach as the two witnesses, and at the end of which 'some' of the anointed will be put to death, according to Jesus. 1 Thes 4;15; Lu 21:16
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you're right ... it doesn't say "during" their presence rather as you say "until" their presence ... but if you continue reading it also says that those who are sleeping in death are the "first" to get up ... and " later "those who are still alive ... and with respect to the great tribulation it will not last 42 months ... it is after the great tribulation that lasts a short time for the chosen ones so that they are not all dead and can be sealed that it begins the 3 and a half years or the 42 months ... it is at this time that you say that the two witnesses and all sealed and approved as anointed ones preach ... and the presence is not after all this but rather it is when the tribulation begins. ... it is in this way that I understand but I can not assure that I am correct so if someone wanted to correct me at some point I would appreciate it. As for Enoch, first I thought that you thought that he did not die ... but now I understand what you say and I think the same ... maybe not all the anointed are killed but layers that most if since the two witnesses say they are murdered..but if someone is not murdered, layers and something similar to Enoch happens to him.
 
JulioG said:
you're right ... it doesn't say "during" their presence rather as you say "until" their presence ... but if you continue reading it also says that those who are sleeping in death are the "first" to get up ... and " later "those who are still alive ... and with respect to the great tribulation it will not last 42 months ... it is after the great tribulation that lasts a short time for the chosen ones so that they are not all dead and can be sealed that it begins the 3 and a half years or the 42 months ... it is at this time that you say that the two witnesses and all sealed and approved as anointed ones preach ... and the presence is not after all this but rather it is when the tribulation begins. ... it is in this way that I understand but I can not assure that I am correct so if someone wanted to correct me at some point I would appreciate it. As for Enoch, first I thought that you thought that he did not die ... but now I understand what you say and I think the same ... maybe not all the anointed are killed but layers that most if since the two witnesses say they are murdered..but if someone is not murdered, layers and something similar to Enoch happens to him.
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Even if the tribulation were a lot shorter than 3.5 years, as you think, there would be no point for the two witnesses to preach to 'all the tribes of the earth who beat themselves in grief' immediately after the end of the great tribulation, when they have already seen Jesus coming in power and glory; preach what? these people are already in utter despair at their impending annihilation - no, the preaching has got to be done during the time when the whole world follows the beast with admiration, and when it is believed to be the kingdom of God on earth that people need to be told that this is from Satan and not from God.

As to 1 Thes 4:15-17, Paul does not say that the resurrected anointed ones will be first with Jesus, which he says because some were worried that those who survive in the flesh to the coming of Jesus on the clouds would be unfairly advantaged over those sleeping in death to be first with the Lord.

Hence Paul clarifies that when Jesus comes, although the dead anointed ones will be resurrected first, before they join Jesus, it is only afterward, i.e. after their resurrection, that they together with those who survive in the flesh will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air - hence, no group will precede the other.
 
Asadour said:
how does a person demonstrate they “endure” or remain faithful? how do you remain faithful?
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Faith appears to to be judged relative to the persons insight into the term, faith. The bible says that “one will not be tested beyond his endurance. Therefore endurance is the measure by which we will be judged. This may be due in part to spiritual frailties, because (correct me if I’m wrong) we are tested as to our proclivities, and also in our values inasmuch as we value for instance, our lives, and again, by our attributes of the spirit….love…justice…generosity etc., etc. Thus we see that learning and knowledge are outweighed by love and selflessness, sacrifice, adherence to spiritual values. These can certainly be enhanced by knowledge, but if the truth is not in us, then that knowledge is the limit of our endurance, for we will sell ourselves to satiate our particular need…thus was Jesus tempted by a mere loaf of bread. The illustration being of course, that how on earth would Christ have survived his death on the torture stake, if he would preserve his life for a mouthful of bread? Even then, Jesus asked for the test to be removed from him, but only if by Jehovah‘s will. Thus what else, other than love, and the faith that is inspired by love, could have seen him though? Pro-rata then to our attributes and our love, will we be tested. Each of us has our own limit and that limit is only discernible by Jesus and Jehovah. As to remaining faithful, we must all of us be prepared for the ultimate test that Jesus took upon himself. When we have resolved to do the same, then we can be tested no further than that. And if that is what it takes, let us resolve now to endure it in faith.
Thus if you acquire that faith now, then you need not worry further over how to achieve it But to endure it. This in itself is resolved in part by asking ourselves the simple question, do I really want to live in this world? In our frail and doubting mind, that is a pertinent question to resolve within ourselves as soon as possible. However, it is not the real question pertaining to love and faith and thus misses the point entirely. The real question to ask ourselves is how much we love our creator, his son, and his righteousness, love, justice peace and happiness. His principles, his guidance, the beauty of his spirit.
We do not serve Jehovah to get out of this system, but to serve him because of what he actually is. Imagine if you had a dog that decided to live with you simply because it was better than the street. Thus to remain faithful, we have to learn to love the attributes of Jehovah and to take that in to the full. We are each given this ability and thus our faith is inextricably bound in its measure, to become within ourselves - our own nature - to the true absorption of His spirit and for it to be genuinely of our own making according to the gifts of insight given us.
 
‘He that endures to the end will be saved’ A Christian who runs the race like a marathon must make it to the end. The end here is Christs return bringing Armageddon. someone said the preaching and enduring are different but Jesus commanded in Mth 28:18-20 his disciples that includes us Christians today living in these last days to ‘make disciples baptising them , .. I am with you (in spirit providing Holy Spirit) all the day until the conclusion of the age’. So baptism make disciples and must be completEd to Gods satisfactio, prior to the conclusion. Some say that means Jehovah’s Witness believe only they will be saved. What. Rubbish it means Jesus told us to do something and he expects us to do it. All judgement and who he saves is his prerogative. We as Christians must remember we are ‘good for nothing slaves’ but he loves us. There are faults with the witnesses but 8million are working hard preaching the good news, who else is. 6000 Bible student aint quite the same. That same number existed in 1916. So much for an increase.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
Faith appears to to be judged relative to the persons insight into the term, faith. The bible says that “one will not be tested beyond his endurance. Therefore endurance is the measure by which we will be judged. This may be due in part to spiritual frailties, because (correct me if I’m wrong) we are tested as to our proclivities, and also in our values inasmuch as we value for instance, our lives, and again, by our attributes of the spirit….love…justice…generosity etc., etc. Thus we see that learning and knowledge are outweighed by love and selflessness, sacrifice, adherence to spiritual values. These can certainly be enhanced by knowledge, but if the truth is not in us, then that knowledge is the limit of our endurance, for we will sell ourselves to satiate our particular need…thus was Jesus tempted by a mere loaf of bread. The illustration being of course, that how on earth would Christ have survived his death on the torture stake, if he would preserve his life for a mouthful of bread? Even then, Jesus asked for the test to be removed from him, but only if by Jehovah‘s will. Thus what else, other than love, and the faith that is inspired by love, could have seen him though? Pro-rata then to our attributes and our love, will we be tested. Each of us has our own limit and that limit is only discernible by Jesus and Jehovah. As to remaining faithful, we must all of us be prepared for the ultimate test that Jesus took upon himself. When we have resolved to do the same, then we can be tested no further than that. And if that is what it takes, let us resolve now to endure it in faith.
Thus if you acquire that faith now, then you need not worry further over how to achieve it But to endure it. This in itself is resolved in part by asking ourselves the simple question, do I really want to live in this world? In our frail and doubting mind, that is a pertinent question to resolve within ourselves as soon as possible. However, it is not the real question pertaining to love and faith and thus misses the point entirely. The real question to ask ourselves is how much we love our creator, his son, and his righteousness, love, justice peace and happiness. His principles, his guidance, the beauty of his spirit.
We do not serve Jehovah to get out of this system, but to serve him because of what he actually is. Imagine if you had a dog that decided to live with you simply because it was better than the street. Thus to remain faithful, we have to learn to love the attributes of Jehovah and to take that in to the full. We are each given this ability and thus our faith is inextricably bound in its measure, to become within ourselves - our own nature - to the true absorption of His spirit and for it to be genuinely of our own making according to the gifts of insight given us.
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Awesome work here Barn!!
 
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