Mail Bag Question - What is the end?

I’m probably being simplistic in something I know nothing about, but the critical word here is surely ”changed”., ergo, one from death to spirit life, the other from physical being into spirit.

Good point you noticed there, and, yes, you are right, the comparison between what happened to Enoch and what will happen to the anointed at their being 'transferred' or 'changed' is materially different as you say: one from human existence to Jehovah's 'memory bank,' and the other from being human to immortal spirit being; only the painless and instant 'transformation' was intended to be conveyed in my using this analogy; I like your attention to detail, a great gift from Jehovah.
 
So how much time would you say passes between Christ coming in the clouds with great power and armageddon. Isn't there a 42 months period of time in there somewhere?

Yes, there is 42 months in there quite a few times.

The 42 months, or one thousand two hundred and sixty days, or (appointed)time times and half a time occur in several spots.

“And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.”” Re 11:3
“. . .And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.. . .” Da 7:25
“. . .And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.Re 12:6

“. . .Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.” Re 12:13-14

“. . .But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire issues forth from their mouths and devours their enemies; and if anyone should want to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. 6 These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.” Re 11:2-6
“. . .“It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”” Da 12:7

Easier to reference if they are posted for quick viewing.
 
These three texts are very interesting.
But we should be more concerned about this:Matt 24:23-28.
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.25 Look! I have forewarned you.26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Yes, and it is interesting to note that this paragraph in the parallel account of Mk 13:21-23 is introduced with 'then also,' which raises the question: seeing that this rising up of 'false Christs and prophets working signs and wonders,' which in context is to happen during the great tribulation, what other phase of the end is Jesus marking off here by the tiny word 'also,' - when else - and it has to be prior to the great tribulation, because no one can pretend to be Him after His spectacular transfiguration on the clouds of heaven in power and glory in front of all the tribes of the earth as the whole world becomes eye witnesses of His magnificence.

The answer can only be that prior to the great tribulation proper, which is God's 'wrath on this people,' namely, what is viewed as Christianity today, 'people will deliver us' - the ones who will subsequently 'flee to the mountains' to escape God's wrath on 'Christendom' - they will 'deliver us up to tribulation and will kill us, and we will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of His name,' and this is also the context of when 'this good news of the kingdom will be preached.' Mat 24:4-6,9-14

If read like that, there would seem to be a 3.5 year phase during the sword stroke recovery period, when we will denounce the emerging NWO by preaching that it is not God's kingdom as they claim, while they follow it with admiration, and during which time the initial 'false Christ's and prophets' will arise.

Then, during the following 3.5 years of the great tribulation proper, from which we will 'flee to the mountains' of Jehovah's protection, but during which the two witness judgment message will be preached, Jerusalem will be trampled by the beast for the 42 month, and 'then too, false Christ's and prophets will work signs and wonders' to mislead if possible even the chosen ones.
 
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Yes, and it is interesting to note that this paragraph in the parallel account of Mk 13:21-23 is introduced with 'then also,' which raises the question: seeing that this rising up of 'false Christs and prophets working signs and wonders,' which in context is to happen during the great tribulation, what other phase of the end is Jesus marking off here by the tiny word 'also,' - when else - and it has to be prior to the great tribulation, because no one can pretend to be Him after His spectacular transfiguration on the clouds of heaven in power and glory in front of all the tribes of the earth as the whole world becomes eye witnesses of His magnificence.

The answer can only be that prior to the great tribulation proper, which is God's 'wrath on this people,' namely, what is viewed as Christianity today, 'people will deliver us' - the ones who will subsequently 'flee to the mountains' to escape God's wrath on 'Christendom' - they will 'deliver us up to tribulation and will kill us, and we will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of His name,' and this is also the context of when 'this good news of the kingdom will be preached.' Mat 24:4-6,9-14

If read like that, there would seem to be a 3.5 year phase during the sword stroke recovery period, when we will denounce the emerging NWO by preaching that it is not God's kingdom as they claim, while they follow it with admiration, and during which time the initial 'false Christ's and prophets' will arise.

Then, during the following 3.5 years of the great tribulation proper, from which we will 'flee to the mountains' of Jehovah's protection, but during which the two witness judgment message will be preached, Jerusalem will be trampled by the beast for the 42 month, and 'then too, false Christ's and prophets will work signs and wonders' to mislead if possible even the chosen ones.
Thanks for the your reference on the word also from Mark.
I too think its during the great tribulation.
But I dont think its in the future. Now when so many Jws are leaving, because of the Man Of Lawlessness, they seem to search for spiritual food in other christian religions or gather with former Jws who have organized themselves (disfellowshipped or apostate ones)that misleads them with false teachings.
 
Jehovah forgives us if we repent of our sins. We are all sinners, it's our inheritance from our original parents. Nice inheritance, thanks dad and mom. 😟

"That is why, just as through one man sin entered the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Romans 5:12
thank you BibleStudent. that’s one of my favorites verses. (-:
 
Good point you noticed there, and, yes, you are right, the comparison between what happened to Enoch and what will happen to the anointed at their being 'transferred' or 'changed' is materially different as you say: one from human existence to Jehovah's 'memory bank,' and the other from being human to immortal spirit being; only the painless and instant 'transformation' was intended to be conveyed in my using this analogy; I like your attention to detail, a great gift from Jehovah.
I don’t understand the instant transformation to spirit, it has to be said. i don’t even know the context of it. I expect someone will explain it. I wouldn’t mind having that myself!
 
I don’t understand the instant transformation to spirit, it has to be said. i don’t even know the context of it. I expect someone will explain it. I wouldn’t mind having that myself!

If you read my posts from the start of this thread, you will see the context; it is a bit too much to repeat it all here.
 
how does a person demonstrate they “endure” or remain faithful? how do you remain faithful?

The scripture warns us that during the Great Tribulation the Last King=government that will represent the Beast=Satan, he will try to break you-in order that you

i don’t know if i have ever not taken an oath deceitfully. If that means broken promises, yea i have broke promises. I’ve even promised things knowing i would break it. or probably break it. but i am sorry for it and i won’t do that again.
 
how does a person demonstrate they “endure” or remain faithful? how do you remain faithful?
How does a person demonstrate they "endure" or remain faithful? how do you remain faithful?

The scripture warns us that during the Great Tribulation the Last King=governemnt that will represent the Beast=Satan, he will try to break you-in order that you submit yourself to it, or in other words to compromise/to give up from FAITH for the beast’s/governemnt’s favor. Once you will give up there will be no way back no matter how much sincerely you would want to change it. That is where the scripture says “it will put under COMPULSION….” ( Re 13:16 ). and under the pain of hunger, dying, imprisonent and the pain of death those who will refuse to submit themselves he will kill it. So, that is how a person will demonstrate to JEHOVAH their “endurance” or remain faithful. And Jehovah’s Witnesses will be obviously a special Satan’s Target.
 
Faith appears to to be judged relative to the persons insight into the term, faith. The bible says that “one will not be tested beyond his endurance. Therefore endurance is the measure by which we will be judged. This may be due in part to spiritual frailties, because (correct me if I’m wrong) we are tested as to our proclivities, and also in our values inasmuch as we value for instance, our lives, and again, by our attributes of the spirit….love…justice…generosity etc., etc. Thus we see that learning and knowledge are outweighed by love and selflessness, sacrifice, adherence to spiritual values. These can certainly be enhanced by knowledge, but if the truth is not in us, then that knowledge is the limit of our endurance, for we will sell ourselves to satiate our particular need…thus was Jesus tempted by a mere loaf of bread. The illustration being of course, that how on earth would Christ have survived his death on the torture stake, if he would preserve his life for a mouthful of bread? Even then, Jesus asked for the test to be removed from him, but only if by Jehovah‘s will. Thus what else, other than love, and the faith that is inspired by love, could have seen him though? Pro-rata then to our attributes and our love, will we be tested. Each of us has our own limit and that limit is only discernible by Jesus and Jehovah. As to remaining faithful, we must all of us be prepared for the ultimate test that Jesus took upon himself. When we have resolved to do the same, then we can be tested no further than that. And if that is what it takes, let us resolve now to endure it in faith.
Thus if you acquire that faith now, then you need not worry further over how to achieve it But to endure it. This in itself is resolved in part by asking ourselves the simple question, do I really want to live in this world? In our frail and doubting mind, that is a pertinent question to resolve within ourselves as soon as possible. However, it is not the real question pertaining to love and faith and thus misses the point entirely. The real question to ask ourselves is how much we love our creator, his son, and his righteousness, love, justice peace and happiness. His principles, his guidance, the beauty of his spirit.
We do not serve Jehovah to get out of this system, but to serve him because of what he actually is. Imagine if you had a dog that decided to live with you simply because it was better than the street. Thus to remain faithful, we have to learn to love the attributes of Jehovah and to take that in to the full. We are each given this ability and thus our faith is inextricably bound in its measure, to become within ourselves - our own nature - to the true absorption of His spirit and for it to be genuinely of our own making according to the gifts of insight given us.

Barnaby, Jesus had outstanding unshakable faith in his Father. Yet endurance was a challenge for him. The example of this was when Jesus prayed to JEHOVAH the night before his execution and the angel strengthened him, you know what I am talking about (I think...). So, yes the Faith produces the Endurance but the Endurance will be the Ultimate challenge (mental, spiritual, physical). That is why Jesus said "THOSE who endure to the end will be saved". The word THOSE Jesus uses to indicate that only those will gain the everlasting life. So especially during that time (the Great Tribulation) MANY will claim having faith in JEHOVAH/Christ but there will be lack of endurance, willingness to be faithful even to the death if such situation occurs, so their Faith will be useless.
 
Barnaby, Jesus had outstanding unshakable faith in his Father. Yet endurance was a challenge for him. The example of this was when Jesus prayed to JEHOVAH the night before his execution and the angel strengthened him, you know what I am talking about (I think...). So, yes the Faith produces the Endurance but the Endurance will be the Ultimate challenge (mental, spiritual, physical). That is why Jesus said "THOSE who endure to the end will be saved". The word THOSE Jesus uses to indicate that only those will gain the everlasting life. So especially during that time (the Great Tribulation) MANY will claim having faith in JEHOVAH/Christ but there will be lack of endurance, willingness to be faithful even to the death if such situation occurs, so their Faith will be useless.
Very true M, very true!
 
and most of Jehovah's Witnesses have no idea what really is the great tribulation, they are not focused on it. All they are talking is the destruction of the false religions and Armageddon; this is what I've heard at least in my congregation.... They sincerely believe that they will be saved through the The Watchtower. I remember one of the brother on Sunday's meeting said about the great tribulation in a dismissive way: " .....and there will be a great tribulation or something like that...." which tells me people are clueless about the dreadful reality that is coming and so because of the shock of the reality, many of them will be stumbled.

the Watchtower leaders don't prepare brothers and sisters for endurance, instead they keep them in focus and make sure that they have deep trust/faith in them.
 
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Barnaby said: The bible says that “one will not be tested beyond his endurance.

I forgot about that, you are right. Our survival will depend on JEHOVAH'S mercy seeing how far we can endure. Jehovah is compassionate and would never torture a faithful person to let him go beyond what he can endure. Your example about this with the Christ is an excellent example (I thought about that...) . I would like to only add to this that Job who was struck with leprosy and loosing all his children that would be another example of endurance; JEHOVAH restrained Satan to only so far he could go. Nevertheless, endurance and faith, integrity was they key for Job (I think...). And so the same we will face during the great tribulation.
 
Barnaby said: The bible says that “one will not be tested beyond his endurance.

I forgot about that, you are right. Our survival will depend on JEHOVAH'S mercy seeing how far we can endure. Jehovah is compassionate and would never torture a faithful person to let him go beyond what he can endure. Your example about this with the Christ is an excellent example (I thought about that...) . I would like to only add to this that Job who was struck with leprosy and loosing all his children that would be another example of endurance; JEHOVAH restrained Satan to only so far he could go. Nevertheless, endurance and faith, integrity was they key for Job (I think...). And so the same we will face during the great tribulation.
We are waking at just the right time; absolute blessing.
 
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matt. 24:13

Let's consider the use of the word “end” here versus its use in verses 3 and 6. “End” in verse 3 is sunteleia; the others (including verse 14) are telos. Sunteleia means “the full end (of the age)”; telos can mean either just “the end” or “the full end” depending on context. Telos means “tail,” which can refer to the whole tail or to just the tip of the tail. From a personal standpoint, to “endure unto the end” means to be faithful unto death, to the end of one’s individual course, or Christian walk. Or verse 13 can be considered as applying to the class back there who persevered through the great suffering of that long period of time. But the most practical application is the personal standpoint. In other words, because of iniquity, the love of many waxed cold—but he who endured to the end was saved.
 
How do I remain faithful. I fail so much. I don’t look in the mirror and think ’ I am remaining faithful’ I feel more like the ‘good for nothing slave’ that dispite my miserableness Jehovahs actually still loves me. I may remain like blot free for about 1second after a prayer requesting cleansing in the blood of Jesus. Then it’s me and my mind and heart. Paul said ‘miserable man I am.‘ As an imperfect human it’s pretty hopeless. Thank goodness for Jehovah and his sons love, it keeps me going. I genuinly don’t think I am faithful but I will doggedly carry on. Firstly I value my friendship with Jehovah and for his wonderful Son. Good riddance to that evil angel and his revolting demons, come Lord Jesus come. Amen. christ2coming.org
 
How do I remain faithful. I fail so much. I don’t look in the mirror and think ’ I am remaining faithful’ I feel more like the ‘good for nothing slave’ that dispite my miserableness Jehovahs actually still loves me. I may remain like blot free for about 1second after a prayer requesting cleansing in the blood of Jesus. Then it’s me and my mind and heart. Paul said ‘miserable man I am.‘ As an imperfect human it’s pretty hopeless. Thank goodness for Jehovah and his sons love, it keeps me going. I genuinly don’t think I am faithful but I will doggedly carry on. Firstly I value my friendship with Jehovah and for his wonderful Son. Good riddance to that evil angel and his revolting demons, come Lord Jesus come. Amen. christ2coming.org
It really does take humility to realize that we don’t deserve anything from Jehovah but as long as he allows us to serve him in our imperfect condition, we should at least use that opportunity as we best can, even if imperfect. He is not looking to find fault.
 
Thank you Driven, it’s taken me a disfellowshipping, 2 failed marriages plenty of humiliating circumstances and at present a huge gratitude I have to Jehovah. The next circuit assembly is not a pre recorded one from bethel it’s live with our local CO and local brothers. On the iPad but basically the same day and time we would see it at the assembly hall. A slight improvement.
 
Hence Paul clarifies that when Jesus comes, although the dead anointed ones will be resurrected first, before they join Jesus, it is only afterward, i.e. after their resurrection, that they together with those who survive in the flesh will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air - hence, no group will precede the other.
This scripture comes to mind about the resurrection of the dead ones first, but not caught up yet to heaven together with the Lord.

Revelation 6:9-11 “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.”
Then when they are caught up together. This scripture comes to mind.

Matthew 24:31 “And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”
It was at this time, after the great tribulation and before armageddon, that all are caught up in heaven.

But I’m wondering, in the book of Revelation on chapter 11, the two witnesses died and are caught up in heaven after they have been resurrected. After that, the seventh trumpet was blown.(Revelation 11:11-15) But according to 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, the dead will rise at “the last trumpet.” How could you reconcile the two?

Could the verse in Revelation 11:14 rendered “coming quickly” is in a sense, an instant of time?
 
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