The appointed times of the nations

Nomex

Well-known member
I do not see any reason why anyone who has ever read the Bible, even just the New Testament, would request to have specific proof scriptures to establish the significance of Jerusalem as the origin of Christianity.
Not to mention all of the first Christians were Jews, and established Christianity based on the Bible emanating from Jerusalem!


Robert could you please provide scriptural references, that the first Christians were Jews? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'd just like to read it for myself!!!


ROFLOL...I think somehow, we all doubt you want to read it for your self!


This is what a really good friend of mine sent me just today who's on this forum...


"I’m almost finished RKs book It’s simply amazing!!"

"The image in Daniel represents the 8th king. It makes perfect logical sense. And the feet of iron and clay represents Anglo America, of course!"

"The GB are drunk with stupidity."


I concur my friend 100% But.... with Tight pants Tony, he is actually drunk!


It's incredible to me how obvious this stuff is, when someone points it out.

Kudos to Robert! But those of us who are here, are here because we rejected following men. We have found a leader who follows Christ! And as long as he follows Christ I'll follow his lead, and if he goes down the road the GB went down, I've learned my lesson, it may have taken a while, but it won't take long again.

But I'm quite certain that won't happen.
 
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Patricia

Well-known member
Just a side note on the whole Jerusalem issue, I think someone brought this up in a previous thread on similar topic but I'll reiterate, don't be stumbled if you see literal fulfillment of some prophecies concerning Israel or Jerusalem. Satan read the Bible too and can manipulate events to make it seem like real fulfillment is occurring. But it's probably a fake fulfillment. That may be how he, Satan, plans to get everyone worshipping the beast. I don't know but I think it's a possibility. Gotta stay awake and listening for the voice of our shepherd. Don't be quick to believe, but make sure, I guess is what I'm getting at.
 
Z

Zane

Guest
Hi Zane, I think your assumptions need to be examined. For example in Luke 21:24 it says: “And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”

Notice that Jesus did not say that Jerusalem will CONTINUE to be trampled on but that in the future it will be trampled. So, the trampling had not yet begun. If you are looking at scriptural proof, perhaps we can start there. Has the trampling begun and what is the proof? As Brother King has pointed out, Jesus’ followers gave no indication that they were in a period of trampling.
So are you saying that the trampling of Jerusalem began in 70 CE, and not (as White Stone pointed out) in 607 BCE when Israel lost its God appointed king?

Israel was certainly trampled by many different "nations". After the Babylonians came the Persians, then the Macedonians, then the Ptolemaic Dynasty, then the Seleucid Dynasty, then the Romans, and finally the Muslim Arabs.

:)
 

SusanB

Well-known member
So are you saying that the trampling of Jerusalem began in 70 CE, and not (as White Stone pointed out) in 607 BCE when Israel lost its God appointed king?

Israel was certainly trampled by many different "nations". After the Babylonians came the Persians, then the Macedonians, then the Ptolemaic Dynasty, then the Seleucid Dynasty, then the Romans, and finally the Muslim Arabs.

:)
I’m working today and don’t have time to give a complete answer but I think trampling is different than general persecution. I’ll review this thread later but let me ask if you are honesty looking for answers or if you just want to debate?
 

A B

Well-known member
The video ties the disciples' question about the future destruction of Jerusalem together with Jesus' statement that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled" (Lu 21:24)

But Jesus doesn't say that that is when the trampling will began.

According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek word "eimi", translated as "will be", means "I exist, I am" and has the usage of "remain, is, it is, you are, stay, staying". Those are words of continuance, not of a beginning. Therefore the true meaning of Luke 21:24 is:

"Jerusalem (remains, stays, will continue to be) trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

That tells me that Jesus was not telling them that the trampling of Jerusalem would begin in 70 C.E., but that the ongoing trampling will continue on past that date.

I did a search on your site for "trampled" but found not articles discussing that topic.

You said "The literal city of Jerusalem does not factor into it at all", but the disciples were asking about the literal city of Jerusalem. (Lu 21:7)

You say "Jerusalem is a symbol of Christianity", but you do not provide scriptures to back up that statement.

I'm sure you have the scriptures, but I need to read them myself to believe.

I looked through the first few articles in the search results for "Jerusalem" but I saw no referenced scriptures that identify Jerusalem as a symbol for Christianity.

If you could provide a link to articles that cover those topics, that would be helpful.

Thank you
Yes, but wouldn't this Strong's definition fit well also if the event is in the future and Jesus' words in context are from a reference point after the tribulation has started?
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
If the "Jerusalem" Jesus spoke about that would be trampled on during the tribulation that is destined to come upon the whole world is the modern city in the Middle East most Christians would be unaffected since only a tiny percentage of Christians physically reside in Jerusalem now.
 
Z

Zane

Guest
I’ll review this thread later but let me ask if you are honesty looking for answers or if you just want to debate?
I know what I think, and I know what scriptures I back up that belief with.
Am I unwilling to change me beliefs?
Not at all !!
But all I have seen so far is a lot of opinions.
I need clear scriptural proof to believe something.
So I am trying to get someone to show me the scriptures and not just refer me to some article or video that is also filled with opinion and a few scripture references that don't seem to relate to each other.

I tried to start with a scripture that was clear, so I picked Luke 21:24.
The apostles ask about the literal city of Jerusalem.
Jesus answers them, giving many details of what will happen to the city.
But the response on here is that he is not talking about Jerusalem, but is referring to future Christians.
What??
All of those things happened to Jerusalem, just like he said, but he was not talking about Jerusalem?

It's a bit frustrating.

:confused:
 

Truth_Seeker

Well-known member
"And thou, O deadly wounded wicked one, the prince of Israel, whose day is come, in the time of the iniquity of the end, thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Remove the mitre, and take off the crown; this shall be no more the same; exalt that which is low, and abase that which is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn it: this also shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him."
Ezekiel 21:25‭-‬27

"for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem"
If we refer to heavenly Jerusalem from where God's authority and his law come it stopped having visible effect on earth in 607 bc. This is when the time of the nations started and when Satan was permitted to have dominion upon the whole earth.
Luke 21:24 doesn't indicate that the time of the nations was not already started. It just says that Jerusalem " will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled".

"Why do the nations rage, And the peoples meditate a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against Jehovah, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bonds asunder, And cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens will laugh: The Lord will have them in derision. Then will he speak unto them in his wrath, And vex them in his sore displeasure: Yet I have set my king Upon my holy hill of Zion. I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel."
Psalms 2:1‭-‬9

Jehovah did not anoint any king on earth since the typical kingdom of Israel was overthrown. Jesus came on earth as a mere man. He did not get the kingship of heavenly Jerusalem until the appointed time.

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.
Philippians 2:5‭-‬8

"But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matthew 15:24

When Jesus came on earth Israel nation was considered as lost to God. Jehovah and Jesus knew that only a remnant will be saved of the house of Israel.
 
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Truth_Seeker

Well-known member
As for the literal city of Jerusalem we all can se is under the modern state of Israel. Over 2000 years ago Israel nation was brought back in Palestine by the Persian empire which was then the world power at that time. Recently they were brought back to Palestine by another world power, the British empire. If I was to believe this, I would say there is strong evidence that the profecy of Daniel has been fulfilled by God. It's something of a miracle to have the nation of Israel back to their former land after being scattered in every nation of the world for almost 2000 years.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I know what I think, and I know what scriptures I back up that belief with.
Am I unwilling to change me beliefs?
Not at all !!
But all I have seen so far is a lot of opinions.
I need clear scriptural proof to believe something.
So I am trying to get someone to show me the scriptures and not just refer me to some article or video that is also filled with opinion and a few scripture references that don't seem to relate to each other.

I tried to start with a scripture that was clear, so I picked Luke 21:24.
The apostles ask about the literal city of Jerusalem.
Jesus answers them, giving many details of what will happen to the city.
But the response on here is that he is not talking about Jerusalem, but is referring to future Christians.
What??
All of those things happened to Jerusalem, just like he said, but he was not talking about Jerusalem?

It's a bit frustrating.

:confused:
Ok. You don’t want to read an article or watch a video or read “opinions” but I don’t know why you are here since you seem very satisfied with the Watchtower organization as it is and you appear to have your beliefs identical to what the Governing Body endorses. What am I missing?
 

A B

Well-known member
Ok. You don’t want to read an article or watch a video or read “opinions” but I don’t know why you are here since you seem very satisfied with the Watchtower organization as it is and you appear to have your beliefs identical to what the Governing Body endorses. What am I missing?
No, he has already expressed some beliefs that are very different than the GB.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
The video ties the disciples' question about the future destruction of Jerusalem together with Jesus' statement that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled" (Lu 21:24)

But Jesus doesn't say that that is when the trampling will began.

According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek word "eimi", translated as "will be", means "I exist, I am" and has the usage of "remain, is, it is, you are, stay, staying". Those are words of continuance, not of a beginning. Therefore the true meaning of Luke 21:24 is:

"Jerusalem (remains, stays, will continue to be) trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."
Perhaps I misunderstood your comments and so I will attempt to make my own comment on your understanding of Luke 21:24. I looked up probably 20 different translations and didn’t find any that agrees with your interpretation that Jerusalem will “continue to be” trampled. So I don’t think we can get beyond that difference and to my knowledge your understanding is the only one I’ve heard to interpret it that way. The 2nd point is that another poster pointed out Revelation 21:2 uses new Jerusalem to symbolize the congregation of sealed anointed and I don’t see you accept that thought in a way to connect it to the trampling described in Luke.
 

A B

Well-known member
Perhaps I misunderstood your comments and so I will attempt to make my own comment on your understanding of Luke 21:24. I looked up probably 20 different translations and didn’t find any that agrees with your interpretation that Jerusalem will “continue to be” trampled. So I don’t think we can get beyond that difference and to my knowledge your understanding is the only one I’ve heard to interpret it that way. The 2nd point is that another poster pointed out Revelation 21:2 uses new Jerusalem to symbolize the congregation of sealed anointed and I don’t see you accept that thought in a way to connect it to the trampling described in Luke.
I had wondered about this very tense of the word years ago and had looked it up and had halfway arrived at the conclusion he offered.

trodden down
πατουμένη (patoumenē)
Verb - Present Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Feminine Singular

HOWEVER: to repeat what I said earlier, even a 'present' tense would fit well also if the event is in the future and Jesus' words in context are from a reference point after the tribulation has started.
 

A B

Well-known member
Luke 21:24 and Rev 11:2 are so similar,,,,I need a good explanation about how they could be talking about different things.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I had wondered about this very tense of the word years ago and had looked it up and had halfway arrived at the conclusion he offered.

trodden down
πατουμένη (patoumenē)
Verb - Present Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Feminine Singular

HOWEVER: to repeat what I said earlier, even a 'present' tense would fit well also if the event is in the future and Jesus' words in context are from a reference point after the tribulation has started.
That’s what is dangerous about translating if you’re not trained
 

White Stone

Well-known member
According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek word "eimi", translated as "will be", means "I exist, I am" and has the usage of "remain, is, it is, you are, stay, staying". Those are words of continuance, not of a beginning. Therefore the true meaning of Luke 21:24 is:

"Jerusalem (remains, stays, will continue to be) trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

I’ve searched with the strong’s concordance and this is what I’ve found regarding the trampling.

C85F677A-2016-4F51-A9BF-DEA5AED29472.jpeg
According to Strong’s concordance, “esomai”(shall be) is used and a future tense of the word “eimi”(will be). Indicating that it is to happen yet.

If that is the case then, the fulfillment in Jesus’ words initially fulfilled on 70CE and continued to be so until the Lord Jesus comes in his glory.

Did other bibles used eimi?
 
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The God Pill

Well-known member
I'm neutral but open to the notion of Jehovah intending to reach out to biological Israelites in the future but that has nothing to do with the secular state of Israel (that has a high population of atheists and sodomites) that said the "Israel first" subset of protestants are pawns of the British empire. The empire started this kind of stuff with British Israelism in the late 1800's around the time the fake chapter of Acts was "discovered" where Paul allegedly went to britain and met druids that he could recognize as Israelites from there pagan rituals 🤮 and people were promoting Macabees at the time because it claims the Spartans are descendants of people from the northern ten tribe kingdom.
 
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