The appointed times of the nations

I was raised a Witness, but several years ago I realized they were wrong about something. (the resurrected remaining single)
Then I started looking into their other teachings and found more and More and MORE that did not align with scripture.
Do I think they are 100% wrong about everything?
No, but I question their every teaching, and if I find it conflicts with scripture then I reject it.
(With their backing/pushing of the Covid vaccine and their statement to believe/follow future instructions without question, I have rejected the current GB as well.)

That is how I approach all scriptural beliefs.
I want clear scriptural evidence.
I recently was speaking to a Trinitarian who told me that Jesus claimed to be God.
I asked where.
He directed me to Mark 14:62.
"See? He said he was "I am". That is how God refers to himself at Exodus 3:14."

Is "I am" used in both scriptures?
Yes. (in the original Greek)
Was Jesus calling himself God?
No, but to that person it was proof.
He saw a connection where a connection did not exist.

The same goes for "trampling" and "trampled".
Those words are used in several other places that do not refer to the trampling of Jerusalem.
Are Luke 21:24 and Rev 11:2 talking about the same "trampling" of Jerusalem?
Perhaps, but Luke talks about Jerusalem falling by the edge of the sword, while Revelation says that during that trampling that the two witnesses will be prophesying and that "if anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies." (Re 11:5)

Does "will be" at Luke 21:24 mean that the trampling will start in 70 CE?
If so, that works for me.
Does that conflict with the GB's timetable regarding 607 BCE?
Perhaps, but Jesus never said anything about how long it would last, so I don't see an issue with it.
Maybe rule by the nations began in 607 BCE and the trampling began in 70 CE.

Driven said: "another poster pointed out Revelation 21:2 uses new Jerusalem to symbolize the congregation of sealed anointed and I don’t see you accept that thought in a way to connect it to the trampling described in Luke."

How is it connected?

I don't see the evidence that the new city at Rev 21:2 symbolizes the sealed anointed.
Yes, New Jerusalem is prepared "as a bride", and the lamb's wife has prepared herself (Re 19:7) but New Jerusalem goes with the new heavens and the new earth and is called the tent of God because He will reside in it with mankind on earth. (Re 21:3)

(Ezekiel 37:26, 27) And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an eternal covenant with them. I will establish them and make them many and place my sanctuary among them forever. My tent will be with them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.

(Joel 3:17) And you will have to know that I am Jehovah your God, residing in Zion, my holy mountain. Jerusalem will become a holy place, And strangers will pass through her no more.

If New Jerusalem represents the anointed who will rule from heaven with Christ, then the new city would not be coming to earth. It would be in Heaven.

I'm sure you will ask me what literal Jerusalem has to do with it, but I also investigated the GB's belief in Replacement Theology and found it to be completely unscriptural.
I have attached a doc which contains dozens of scriptures that clearly disprove that theory, which results in earthly Jerusalem having a place in future prophecy.

:)
 
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Zane, Your reasoning is flawed. The verse you cited at Joel 3:17 states that strangers will no more pass through Jerusalem, which means that prior to God's intervention strangers had trampled the city.

I canned your PDF attachment. You can go peddle your Zionist crap elsewhere
 
Watchman said:
Zane, Your reasoning is flawed. The verse you cited at Joel 3:17 states that strangers will no more pass through Jerusalem, which means that prior to God's intervention strangers had trampled the city.

I canned your PDF attachment. You can go peddle your Zionist crap elsewhere
Click to expand...
Yes, "prior to God's intervention strangers had trampled the city".
Of course they did.
That is clearly stated in the previous verses of Joel.
How are those verses wrong?
 
Zane said:
Yes, "prior to God's intervention strangers had trampled the city".
Of course they did.
That is clearly stated in the previous verses of Joel.
How are those verses wrong?
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hi zane
I recently started reading old watchtowers from 1950 onwards
I read 1 a day
I assure you that the depth of those magazines exceeds the current ones
In 1950 several articles came out dealing with the establishment of Israel in 1947
They simply destroy the idea that Israel has anything to do with the prophecy
I recommend your reading



Joel says

28 “And after that it must come to pass that I will pour out my spirit*+ on every kind of flesh,+ and your sons and your daughters+ will certainly prophesy. As for their old, dreams will dream. As for your young men, they will see visions. 29 And even upon male servants and female servants I will pour out my spirit in those days.+30 “And I will certainly give portents in the heavens+ and on the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.+ 31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness ,+ and the moon in blood,+ before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.+ 32 And it must come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will escape safely;+ for on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem will prove to be the escaped ones,+ just as Jehovah has said, and among the survivors,* whom Jehovah calls.”*+

Did you notice that it says that the escapees will be in Jerusalem and on the mountain?
Why then did Jesus say that he would have to flee the city of Jerusalem to escape?
He says the exact opposite of the prophecy… ..or does he?
He who ignored Christ died in Jerusalem when the Romans came
Those who took Joel literally died in 70 CE
Pedro applies this in his day
Either there is a biblical contradiction or the Jerusalem and Zion to which Christians flee is the one that Jesus builds and is spiritual
Jerusalem and the temple are just symbols of something greater
 
Zane said:
No, but I question their every teaching, and if I find it conflicts with scripture then I reject it.
Click to expand...
To be betrayed by a lover has to be the most traumatic of emotional responses: When we entrust an organisation with the things we should have only entrusted to Jah in recognition of Christ's sacrifice! We are obviously suspect of any other semblances of organised belief. I do not have the figures of those like myself blessed by being drawn to the light here at e-watchman but I suspect they are like me those dissmantling the strongly entrenched things and replacing them with the true utensils of Jehovah. I truly hope and pray you find the peace and truth that truly sets one free!
 
Zane said:
I was raised a Witness, but several years ago I realized they were wrong about something. (the resurrected remaining single)
Then I started looking into their other teachings and found more and More and MORE that did not align with scripture.
Do I think they are 100% wrong about everything?
No, but I question their every teaching, and if I find it conflicts with scripture then I reject it.
(With their backing/pushing of the Covid vaccine and their statement to believe/follow future instructions without question, I have rejected the current GB as well.)

That is how I approach all scriptural beliefs.
I want clear scriptural evidence.
I recently was speaking to a Trinitarian who told me that Jesus claimed to be God.
I asked where.
He directed me to Mark 14:62.
"See? He said he was "I am". That is how God refers to himself at Exodus 3:14."

Is "I am" used in both scriptures?
Yes. (in the original Greek)
Was Jesus calling himself God?
No, but to that person it was proof.
He saw a connection where a connection did not exist.

The same goes for "trampling" and "trampled".
Those words are used in several other places that do not refer to the trampling of Jerusalem.
Are Luke 21:24 and Rev 11:2 talking about the same "trampling" of Jerusalem?
Perhaps, but Luke talks about Jerusalem falling by the edge of the sword, while Revelation says that during that trampling that the two witnesses will be prophesying and that "if anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies." (Re 11:5)

Does "will be" at Luke 21:24 mean that the trampling will start in 70 CE?
If so, that works for me.
Does that conflict with the GB's timetable regarding 607 BCE?
Perhaps, but Jesus never said anything about how long it would last, so I don't see an issue with it.
Maybe rule by the nations began in 607 BCE and the trampling began in 70 CE.

Driven said: "another poster pointed out Revelation 21:2 uses new Jerusalem to symbolize the congregation of sealed anointed and I don’t see you accept that thought in a way to connect it to the trampling described in Luke."

How is it connected?

I don't see the evidence that the new city at Rev 21:2 symbolizes the sealed anointed.
Yes, New Jerusalem is prepared "as a bride", and the lamb's wife has prepared herself (Re 19:7) but New Jerusalem goes with the new heavens and the new earth and is called the tent of God because He will reside in it with mankind on earth. (Re 21:3)

(Ezekiel 37:26, 27) And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an eternal covenant with them. I will establish them and make them many and place my sanctuary among them forever. My tent will be with them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.

(Joel 3:17) And you will have to know that I am Jehovah your God, residing in Zion, my holy mountain. Jerusalem will become a holy place, And strangers will pass through her no more.

If New Jerusalem represents the anointed who will rule from heaven with Christ, then the new city would not be coming to earth. It would be in Heaven.

I'm sure you will ask me what literal Jerusalem has to do with it, but I also investigated the GB's belief in Replacement Theology and found it to be completely unscriptural.
I have attached a doc which contains dozens of scriptures that clearly disprove that theory, which results in earthly Jerusalem having a place in future prophecy.

:)
Click to expand...
Hi Zane, Thank you for the background of where you are “coming from”. It does help me with viewing your posts with authenticity. I can appreciate the depth of betrayal from the organization and that makes one want to question everything. I do wish you well on your journey and I pray that Jehovah will strengthen your faith, my faith and all of us out here groping for him. What I cannot do is look up every greek or Hebrew word to see if the many professional translators expressed the message correctly. Nor will I read the unlimited list of extraneous things like the apocryphal gospels. My time is limited and I want to use it wisely as I‘m sure we all do. What I can do is compare the different translations, the commentaries of those that I respect and/or have looked into their credentials, the context and harmony of the bible and hopefully have God’s spirit and blessing on my search. So, I won’t be liking or commenting on anything that I find too “nit picking” or getting into the weeds so to speak. I want to come on the forum and enjoy the comments, hopeful upbuild others as well and have a pleasant feeling after interacting with the forum. So, I will probably just ignore the comments that I don’t find add anything to my faith. Again, I wish you well.
 
Watchman said:
I canned your PDF attachment. You can go peddle your Zionist crap elsewhere
Click to expand...

Did Paul peddle "Zionist crap"?

(Romans 11:1, 2) I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.



Did Jehovah Peddle "Zionist crap"?

(Genesis 13:14-15) Jehovah said to Aʹbram, after Lot had separated from him: “Raise your eyes, please, and look from the place where you are, to the north and south, east and west, 15 because all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring as a lasting possession.

(Genesis 17:7, 8) “And I will keep my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land in which you lived as a foreigner—the entire land of Caʹnaan—for a lasting possession, and I will be their God.”

(Genesis 17:19) To this God said: “Your wife Sarah will definitely bear you a son, and you must name him Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant to his offspring after him.

(Jeremiah 31:35, 36) This is what Jehovah says, Who gives the sun for light by day, The laws of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea and makes its waves boisterous, Whose name is Jehovah of armies: 36 “‘If these regulations should ever fail,’ declares Jehovah, ‘Only then would the offspring of Israel cease as a nation before me always.’”



Christians belong to Christ:

(Mark 9:41) And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.

(1 Corinthians 3:23) in turn you belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.



The offspring of Abraham belong to Jehovah:

(Isaiah 43:1) Now this is what Jehovah says, Your Creator, O Jacob, the One who formed you, O Israel: “Do not be afraid, for I have repurchased you. I have called you by your name. You belong to me.

(Isaiah 43:21) The people whom I formed for myself So that they might declare my praise.

(Joel 3:1-2) “For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather together all the nations And bring them down to the Valley of Je·hoshʹa·phat. I will enter into judgment with them there In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations, And they divided up my land among themselves.



Christ made a covenant with the anointed to rule with him in heaven:

(Luke 22:28-30) “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

(Revelation 20:6) Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.



Jehovah made a covenant with the offspring of Abraham:

(Jeremiah 31:31-34) “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”

33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”

34 “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin.”

(Ezekiel 11:17-20) “Therefore say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “I will also collect you from the peoples and gather you from the lands to which you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18 And they will return there and remove from it all its disgusting things and detestable practices. 19 And I will give them a unified heart, and I will put a new spirit in them; and I will remove the heart of stone from their bodies and give them a heart of flesh, 20 in order that they may walk in my statutes and observe my judgments and obey them. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God.”’



And then there is the covenant between Jehovah and mankind in general for forgiveness of sin:

(Matthew 26:28) for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

(John 1:29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

(1 Peter 2:24) He himself bore our sins in his own body on the stake, so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”

(Romans 8:21) that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.

(Revelation 7:9-14) After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

(Revelation 7:15-17) That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

(Revelation 21:2-4) I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”



How is any of that "Zionist crap"?
 
MickHewitt said:
To be betrayed by a lover has to be the most traumatic of emotional responses: When we entrust an organisation with the things we should have only entrusted to Jah in recognition of Christ's sacrifice! We are obviously suspect of any other semblances of organised belief. I do not have the figures of those like myself blessed by being drawn to the light here at e-watchman but I suspect they are like me those dissmantling the strongly entrenched things and replacing them with the true utensils of Jehovah. I truly hope and pray you find the peace and truth that truly sets one free!
Click to expand...
Thanks Mick
 
@Driven given the reply to Zane if my output is too much on the minutia end I apologize robert has such a command of the scriptures it would take a few decades to be a peer as far as value I can provide anyone so I try to relentlessly mine everything I can bible related beyond what I could from the jw library app or the years of adolescence I spent devouring watchtower library. As I never got anyone into the truth and it's become corrupt to the point there's much less value in affiliating people with the wt corporation I see my value more in supporting our brotherhood on and offline. I see myself as equivalent to an eager rookie ministerial servant of our group here.
 
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Driven said:
Hi Zane, Thank you for the background of where you are “coming from”. It does help me with viewing your posts with authenticity. I can appreciate the depth of betrayal from the organization and that makes one want to question everything. I do wish you well on your journey and I pray that Jehovah will strengthen your faith, my faith and all of us out here groping for him. What I cannot do is look up every greek or Hebrew word to see if the many professional translators expressed the message correctly. Nor will I read the unlimited list of extraneous things like the apocryphal gospels. My time is limited and I want to use it wisely as I‘m sure we all do. What I can do is compare the different translations, the commentaries of those that I respect and/or have looked into their credentials, the context and harmony of the bible and hopefully have God’s spirit and blessing on my search. So, I won’t be liking or commenting on anything that I find too “nit picking” or getting into the weeds so to speak. I want to come on the forum and enjoy the comments, hopeful upbuild others as well and have a pleasant feeling after interacting with the forum. So, I will probably just ignore the comments that I don’t find add anything to my faith. Again, I wish you well.
Click to expand...

No problem at all, and thanks.
As Paul tells us at 1 Corinthians 13:12, 13, our understanding of scripture is like looking in a hazy mirror.
We only know partially and will not have full accurate knowledge this side of Armageddon.
But what we do have is faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.

:)
 
"Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
John 15:4‭-‬6

"But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."
Romans 11:13‭-‬23

"let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among mankind by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:10‭-‬12

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Matthew 23:37‭-‬39
 
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The God Pill said:
@Driven given the response to Zane if my output is too much on the minutia end I apologize robert has such a command of the scriptures it would take a few decades to be a peer as far as value I can provide anyone so I try to relentlessly mine everything I can bible related beyond what I could from the jw library app or the years of adolescence I spent devouring watchtower library. As I never got anyone into the truth and it's become corrupt to the point there's much less value in affiliating people with the wt corporation I see my value more in supporting our brotherhood on and offline. I see myself as equivalent to an eager rookie ministerial servant of our group here.
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Hi TGP, I support you in your search. As you already know, I don’t comment on all of your posts because I just cannot spend the time to educate myself on the things that you are interested in. I still find your posts encouraging not discouraging and I don‘t feel compelled to accept everything you post. I have much respect for you, your posts and the knowledge that you have. I freely admit that a lot of what you are into is over my head and honestly I don’t feel all of the information outside of the bible is necessary in my quest to deepen my relationship with Jehovah. Thankfully, his word tells me, Luke 10:21: “In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.“

That is not to say that you should not rejoice in your knowledge of scriptural things. You are often the first person that I ask when I need technical info. But for me, the truth is more simple and I rejoice that it is a good fit for me. We are all individuals and Jehovah accepts that about us. And, I enjoy the way you present your information. It is always very kind seasoned with salt so to speak. Much love to you.
 
Driven said:
Hi TGP, I support you in your search. As you already know, I don’t comment on all of your posts because I just cannot spend the time to educate myself on the things that you are interested in. I still find your posts encouraging not discouraging and I don‘t feel compelled to accept everything you post. I have much respect for you, your posts and the knowledge that you have. I freely admit that a lot of what you are into is over my head and honestly I don’t feel all of the information outside of the bible is necessary in my quest to deepen my relationship with Jehovah. Thankfully, his word tells me, Luke 10:21: “In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.“

That is not to say that you should not rejoice in your knowledge of scriptural things. You are often the first person that I ask when I need technical info. But for me, the truth is more simple and I rejoice that it is a good fit for me. We are all individuals and Jehovah accepts that about us. And, I enjoy the way you present your information. It is always very kind seasoned with salt so to speak. Much love to you.
Click to expand...
Thank you. If no one ever agreed on any point of contrast from the watchtower on the forum I wouldn't mind my own views develop and change frequently enough it'd be wrong to want consensus or support from anyone even if in a point in time I was pretty confident on one thing or another it's output for others individual evaluations. There's over 170 people here over a hundred seventy means to grow with their own personalities and unique strengths. I love when @Ireneo @BARNABY THE DOG. And @MickHewitt post they are great presences among dozens of others.
 
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