Dorothea
Well-known member
I listened to this one several times, but I'm not sure I've heard the other two. Thanks for sharing!
Who else is staying? What are your reasons?
- Thread starter Dorothea
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Nomex
Well-known member
This is one of the things that has puzzled me the most. They can judge you, yet think they won't be judged? Just remarkable to me, always has been.
P
Posstot
Guest
Why is all creation 'waiting for the revealing of the Sons of God,' when the whole world knows that it is JW.org?
JulioG
Well-known member
P
Posstot
Guest
Thank you for this reminder, that’s why I know Robert is used by Jehovah he has never forgotten where he first learnt the basic Bible truths, while others out there do all the exposing of the Watchtowers errors while providing nothing more than leading people astray.
I can't speak for the people you rightly criticize here, but shouldn't we love the truth more than the people who 'gave' it to us?
Is the messenger to be respected more than the message, or the One who would let even the stones cry out, in order to deliver it to us?
Should we become Sadducees because Caiaphas gave us the profound truth that, 'it is better for one man to die on behalf of the people, than that all of them to be destroyed?'
Jim
Well-known member
Maybe I do not think as deeply as you. I know the errors of the Watchtower ad nauseum. But it still a place where we congregate among those that at least know basic biblical truths. I will go out on a limb and even say most in attendance love the truth. Some choose not to attend. I get that. But why do you seem to discourage fellowship?
R
RR144
Guest
I'm in the minority in this group when it comes to prophetic issues. I believe that the Jews are still God's Chosen, as Paul stated in Romans 11 that the Jews have NOT been rejected. So Ezekiel 38, has more to do with the Nation of Israel than it does with Spiritual Israel.
RR
Nomex
Well-known member
Every single one of Christs apostles thought he was going to begin reigning on earth 2,000 years ago right up until he was killed. I guess Jesus was complicit with evil. "be kind to yourself Lord, you won't have this fate at all."
R
RR144
Guest
Jesus said ... "Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or receive any of her plagues." Rev. 18:4
P
Posstot
Guest
Correct, but those congregations were founded by Christ and His Apostles, including Paul, who raised the dead and was converted by Christ personally; so if you can refer me to a congregation with similar credentials, I will gladly check it out to see if their inspired expressions originate with God; but if I find them preaching a gospel of a Christ that has already come, I can only say with Paul: 'Let them be accursed,' because Jesus specifically warned against those 'coming on the basis of My Name, saying, The due time [of the invisible presence] has approached,' Him saying: "Do not go after them!" Gal 1:6-9; Lu 21:8
The first century Christian congregation was instituted to worship Jehovah in spirit and truth, but this situation was left to deteriorate to what we have today here in the west.
Where in scripture can we find support for the notion that at some time in the 1800's a new, or 'revitalized,' Christian congregation was to be started up again?
Prophetic scripture does indeed talk about such a restoration of Jehovah's worship, but only after the coming of Christ during His millennial parousia.
Of course we all know the WT's take on this with their 1874 / 1914 false 'invisible presence before coming' prediction as divine authentication, as they see it, but I think this dogma does not need further debunking here.
Hence, all we are left with to follow is Christ, the Mediator between Jehovah and us, a role that the WT seems to have successfully usurped in the hearts of many a JW, unfortunately.
As to 'pressure' on people to stick with the WT or leave, my take is this: Everybody needs to ask Jehovah through Jesus whether and when to make this decision, because it is their life and relationship with Him; I can only speak of what I see in His word, and I don't want anyone's blood on my hands. Ac 20:26,27
P
Posstot
Guest
Right, Paul seemed to have thought that he might be among the 'living who survive to the return of Christ,' as noted in his early letters, but which eventuality he later realized would not be the case with him personally; but that is in no way comparable to teaching that Christ has already returned and appointed them as sole channel through whom people must get saved, as the WT teaches.
But besides, and more importantly, we are not Jesus and Jehovah, whose acquiescence to evil does not equate to approval, as people are wont to imagine, but is there for the purpose of giving them time to repent; we, on the other hand, have no such divine prerogative to dispense, but are told to flee and keep ourselves clean from such corruption.
So, yes, Jesus was complicit in the toleration of evil, that is what cost Him His life; but we have no such perfect offering for redemption to give.
P
Posstot
Guest
Indeed, that is why I would recommend every JW to do what the Ephesian brothers did, and for which Jesus commended them, namely, to put the WT apostles to the test, and upon finding them to be liars, to not bear, or put up with, these bad men, and to see how that turns out for them. Re 2:2
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
To think of the well-being of another in the actions you take, is always a good thing but if you have not told your mum why you are staying, you might want to consider doing so. You say that your mum is a dyed in the wool witness. If that is the case, then the vital issue of truth will raise it’s question in the most dire of circumstances right at the point of no return. You will both be fighting for each other at a critical time where neither of you will want to back down and both for the same reason - love of the other. That is a hard battle to win.
The bible says that the followers of Christ will recognise his voice. I certainly feel that personally but I can see how, given the watchtowers mind-bending rhetoric, that others may find that difficult. The watchtower message is compelling, easy; an open road that costs its followers only an inviting fraction of the expenditure in faith that following Jesus does in reality. But the penalties of not choosing watchtowers easy path, is as you note so truthfully, are both dire and heartbreaking and yes, it tears families apart. If your mum has a belief as strong as yours, it might be worth cultivating the ground on which to argue the matter out before hand, which may be the kinder way for an elderly parent rather that leaving the field, so to speak, fallow and the balance of truth untried. As Christ pointed out, plant the seed, till the ground, water, leave the rest to Jehovah, the seer of hearts. Critical times, hard to deal with seem to be impending.
יהוה_saves
Well-known member
I really wanted to stay in but i couldn’t live a lie. i couldn’t look my brothers and sisters in the eye and pretend that the Governing Body is in anyway guided by Jehovah. I couldn’t and wouldn’t pretend to agree with or like any of what the Governing Body, or their helpers, say in their scripted video announcements. I find the Governing Body both severally, and as a group, utterly revolting.
- there was just no way i could stay in an organization lead by what i perceive as a fundamentally corrupted body of men that regularly define Christian faith i) in terms of belief that this self-appointed body is guided by Jehovah (i do not); and ii) that faith is defined by one’s willingness to strictly obey everything this self-appointed body commands (i will not). For these reasons, i am already disqualified as a Jehovah’s Witness according to their own organizational dogma.
See, to me, the Governing Body IS the organization; there is no way to separate the Governing Body FROM the Organziation, they are simply not exclusive.
That some folks are able to compartmentalize the Governing Body and the Organziation is a personal matter that i would never judge. I respect each of you for your personal decisions wrt to this weighty matter, and i love each of you no matter what you decide. Each of us must carry our load.
- there was just no way i could stay in an organization lead by what i perceive as a fundamentally corrupted body of men that regularly define Christian faith i) in terms of belief that this self-appointed body is guided by Jehovah (i do not); and ii) that faith is defined by one’s willingness to strictly obey everything this self-appointed body commands (i will not). For these reasons, i am already disqualified as a Jehovah’s Witness according to their own organizational dogma.
See, to me, the Governing Body IS the organization; there is no way to separate the Governing Body FROM the Organziation, they are simply not exclusive.
That some folks are able to compartmentalize the Governing Body and the Organziation is a personal matter that i would never judge. I respect each of you for your personal decisions wrt to this weighty matter, and i love each of you no matter what you decide. Each of us must carry our load.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
I can only agree with you. I too feel that the organisation has been hijacked by the governing body. An organisation such as this cannot serve its acclaimed role, whilst at the same time, elevating some of its members to a controlling leadership, dictating what “truth” is. There is, in my mind at least, a vast difference in the GB behaviours to the “governing body” they mirror themselves on in the role of the apostles. The apostles explained truth. They did not create it. They did not put themselves above others and indeed, when challenged, made a clear reply with an informed backing from the scriptures. They overcame their feelings of privilage in having known Christ, and served others through the use of their insight for those coming after them. They did not lay claim to the truth, but expounded it. The GB think more of themselves than is necessary, and let their pride run away with itself. Their ignorance in running a multi-billion dollar business has caused them to betray the brothers through their need to appoint business overseers, and whose motives in serving the organisation is anything but Christian it seems. What faith is left is evidenced by the unrest within the brotherhood.
I can well understand Dorothea in her wish to save her mother. I might well have done the same in her situation. It is strange, very strange indeed, that the reason for leaving the watchtower is the watchtower themselves and the hatred it stirs in others who question issues of truth. Whatever happened to “reasoning on the scriptures“? To what depths must the watchtower sink until it is time to “get out of her my people if you do not wish to share in her sin.” Let’s hope Dorothea can snatch her mum from the watchtower‘s jaws before that time arrives.
P
Posstot
Guest
Jehovah and Jesus are absolutely responsible for everything that happens on their watch, and for letting themselves be misrepresented and reproached by their people, or anyone else in heaven or on earth, which is why He is holding an accounting against His people for all their errors. Am 3:2
Being Almighty carries absolute moral and legal liability with it as job description, something those wanting to be equal to Him didn't see coming, when they thought they defeated Jehovah at the point of succeeding in getting His Son killed, while that was the very thing that drew right hearted people to His side, and paid the bill for all the suffering and injustice that came about by His acquiescence to evil, as well as providing the ransom price for those believing in Christ.
P
Posstot
Guest
Yes, if you allow them to; "Do you not know that if you keep presenting yourselves to anyone as slaves to obey him, you are slaves of him because you obey him?" Ro 6:16
" . . . and that [Jesus] might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives," Heb 2:15
"For such freedom Christ set us free; therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery." Gal 5:1
i think it is a mistake for people to try to rush and speed up the work of Jehovah. if we believe that God has used the WTO as a gathring point for the anointed and the other sheep then surely we must also believe that Jehovah has a plan for life after the WTO
of course real hard difficulties during the transition period were always going to arise where a member of a family starts to awaken to what is happening before other members do, and this is obviously going to be a difficult time for all of them.
however i believe that the choice of the person to stay or to go is their individual choice.
and the making of that choice by the individual is not favoured or diapproved by Jehovah at this time.
This is a time of awakening not judgement!
an analogy i suppose is that you are aware that the ship is sinking and you tell your family and they do not believe it do you leave them to die clinging to the ship and its GB captain or do you perservere for some time in convincing them. to leave
is it not better for a person to perservere for sometime to keep stability in the family in order to allow time end events (rising water into the ship)to support their new position of scriptural understanding? further will leaving achieve anything at this point in time? will it cause more damage than good? can the individual cope with going to meetings and continuing as normal as possible with the org?
these are questions for the individual to answer, for themselves.
Let Jehovah do his work at his speed and watch the WT whitewashed wall crumble before it collapses and and let those who belong to Jehovah recognise it when THEY see it happening and hopefully they react appropriatley at the right time for themselves when it all then makes sense to them.
May Jehovah bless of Jws who are going to experience such things like Dorothea, with patience and tolerance and the ability to get through these difficult times. of course i know he will and i believe that is why Robert is here, his work is part of the plan of Jehovah for the regathering of his down trodden sheep when the hired hand is exposed and it becomes obvious the the GB does really not care for the sheep .
of course real hard difficulties during the transition period were always going to arise where a member of a family starts to awaken to what is happening before other members do, and this is obviously going to be a difficult time for all of them.
however i believe that the choice of the person to stay or to go is their individual choice.
and the making of that choice by the individual is not favoured or diapproved by Jehovah at this time.
This is a time of awakening not judgement!
an analogy i suppose is that you are aware that the ship is sinking and you tell your family and they do not believe it do you leave them to die clinging to the ship and its GB captain or do you perservere for some time in convincing them. to leave
is it not better for a person to perservere for sometime to keep stability in the family in order to allow time end events (rising water into the ship)to support their new position of scriptural understanding? further will leaving achieve anything at this point in time? will it cause more damage than good? can the individual cope with going to meetings and continuing as normal as possible with the org?
these are questions for the individual to answer, for themselves.
Let Jehovah do his work at his speed and watch the WT whitewashed wall crumble before it collapses and and let those who belong to Jehovah recognise it when THEY see it happening and hopefully they react appropriatley at the right time for themselves when it all then makes sense to them.
May Jehovah bless of Jws who are going to experience such things like Dorothea, with patience and tolerance and the ability to get through these difficult times. of course i know he will and i believe that is why Robert is here, his work is part of the plan of Jehovah for the regathering of his down trodden sheep when the hired hand is exposed and it becomes obvious the the GB does really not care for the sheep .
P
Posstot
Guest
Aiding and abetting is usually viewed as slightly less reprehensible than perpetration of an offence, such as lying, but Paul seems to have the opposite view, to wit: ". . . they not only keep on [practicing things deserving of death], but also consent with those practicing them." Ro 1:32
This makes sense, because without the 8 million JW.org devotees, aiding and abetting, there would be no GB ruling over them.