Will Animals Be Resurrected?

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
Well, since I can speak freely here without fear of censorship, I'd like to talk about something that I've been considering for awhile: that JW's may have it wrong about the fate of mammals.

Why do I say this? Scriptural support by reasoning on the scriptures:

Genesis 1:28

28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

So my reasoning is thus: we know that the Bible says the earth, which was to be "subdued" will exist forever thus Adam and Eve would have also lived forever, if faithful, and so would their children. So, if the earth and humans were to exist forever, and there were three things mentioned in the above verse (they were to care for the animals) then why would they also not have lived forever?

Genesis 2:19

19 Now Jehovah God had been forming from the ground every wild animal of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call each living creature, that became its name.

People name children. They name trees, planets, etc. But Jehovah's very first assignment that he gave to Adam was to name the animals. That is something that humans do to babies. Why do that if Jehovah did not purpose for Adam to have a close relationship with them?

Revelation 21: 4

4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

I don't know if any of you have pets, but I personally cried rivers when mine died. It would not be paradise for me to continually, for eternity, have to lose little pets that I've grown attached to


According to these articles, animals grieve when either other animals die or humans die:

http://news.yahoo.com/just-explain-it--animal-grief-153049696.html

9/15/12 WT:

8 Is it really possible for humans to have all the animals in subjection and to be at peace with them? Many people are very close to their pets, such as dogs and cats. What about wild animals, though? One report says: “Scientists who have lived closely with beasts and studied them have found that all mammals are emotional.” Of course, we see animals become frightened or ferocious when they are threatened, but are they capable of what some might describe as tender feelings? The report continues: “It is in the raising of their young that mammals reveal their greatest attribute—their tremendous capacity for warm affection.”


http://animals.pawnation.com/elephants-grieve-3266.html

So, if animals grieve, and humans grieve, then can it really be said that death is "natural" for them?? Does that reflect the loving personality that we know that Jehovah has?

I have more to say on the subject and will do so in the comment section later, due to the questions that I now inevitably will arise, but think about this:

In the New World, there have been species that have gone extinct that Jehovah will bring back. So he has two choices to do this: 1) Recreate that species anew or 2) Resurrect the ones that already had lived before.

Which option seems more consistent with Jehovah's loving personality?

Thoughts?
 

goldie

Well-known member
Well, since I can speak freely here without fear of censorship, I'd like to talk about something that I've been considering for awhile: that JW's may have it wrong about the fate of mammals.

Why do I say this? Scriptural support by reasoning on the scriptures:

Genesis 1:28

28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

So my reasoning is thus: we know that the Bible says the earth, which was to be "subdued" will exist forever thus Adam and Eve would have also lived forever, if faithful, and so would their children. So, if the earth and humans were to exist forever, and there were three things mentioned in the above verse (they were to care for the animals) then why would they also not have lived forever?

Genesis 2:19

19 Now Jehovah God had been forming from the ground every wild animal of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call each living creature, that became its name.

People name children. They name trees, planets, etc. But Jehovah's very first assignment that he gave to Adam was to name the animals. That is something that humans do to babies. Why do that if Jehovah did not purpose for Adam to have a close relationship with them?

Revelation 21: 4

4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

I don't know if any of you have pets, but I personally cried rivers when mine died. It would not be paradise for me to continually, for eternity, have to lose little pets that I've grown attached to


According to these articles, animals grieve when either other animals die or humans die:

http://news.yahoo.com/just-explain-it--animal-grief-153049696.html

9/15/12 WT:

8 Is it really possible for humans to have all the animals in subjection and to be at peace with them? Many people are very close to their pets, such as dogs and cats. What about wild animals, though? One report says: “Scientists who have lived closely with beasts and studied them have found that all mammals are emotional.” Of course, we see animals become frightened or ferocious when they are threatened, but are they capable of what some might describe as tender feelings? The report continues: “It is in the raising of their young that mammals reveal their greatest attribute—their tremendous capacity for warm affection.”


http://animals.pawnation.com/elephants-grieve-3266.html

So, if animals grieve, and humans grieve, then can it really be said that death is "natural" for them?? Does that reflect the loving personality that we know that Jehovah has?

I have more to say on the subject and will do so in the comment section later, due to the questions that I now inevitably will arise, but think about this:

In the New World, there have been species that have gone extinct that Jehovah will bring back. So he has two choices to do this: 1) Recreate that species anew or 2) Resurrect the ones that already had lived before.

Which option seems more consistent with Jehovah's loving personality?

Thoughts?
I certainly hope so my dear sister, I want my dogs back more than anything else, it truly is my hearts desire. I miss them all very much.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I‘m a big animal lover as well but it doesn’t appear to me that Jehovah purposed for animals to live forever. I think our viewpoints will change because we will learn more about Jehovah and have a better understanding of creation. It is true that Adam named the animals but I think it was the name of the species of animal and not an individual name. For example perhaps he named a bird a hawk but not Henry the hawk. I do miss my animals though and whatever Jehovah has purposed for us and for earthly creations, I know it will be fabulous.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
Jesus didn't sacrifice his life for animals. The apostle Peter acknowledged that animals are born to die. "But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own [course of] destruction..."
 

Jordan Seager

Well-known member
I‘m a big animal lover as well but it doesn’t appear to me that Jehovah purposed for animals to live forever. I think our viewpoints will change because we will learn more about Jehovah and have a better understanding of creation. It is true that Adam named the animals but I think it was the name of the species of animal and not an individual name. For example perhaps he named a bird a hawk but not Henry the hawk. I do miss my animals though and whatever Jehovah has purposed for us and for earthly creations, I know it will be fabulous.
Me and my mum often bring this up. If animals were able to live eternally with people in the new system, then also bugs and bacteria also must live eternally, which is impossible. Right now, seeing animals perish is horrible, the thought of never seeing my cat again hurts my heart, but I'm sure animals are well aware of Jehovah's existence and that if they die, they will never come back, they accept that because they don't have a conscience like humans. And Christ died for 'Us' only. But as you stated, our viewpoints will change on death.

I digress and fantasize heavily here. But who knows what Jehovah will have in store for us, if I survive Armageddon, I'm curious to what the new scrolls will have in them, new forms of science, new laws of chemistry, biology and physics? We may even physically have a new form over the infinite amount of time we'll have. A totally different body type, structure and physique, all the way down to the molecular level. Todays science is probably just a very basic form of Jehovah's power and a new type of science will come into play, rendering everything we've learnt by ourselves obsolete. Then maybe, JUST maybe, we could request to have our critters back with such a new science.
 
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Niobium

Well-known member
This poses another related question for me. Will animals get sick? Now we have to take our pets to the vet for all sorts of problems that affect them.
I don't see any reference to Adam having to give treatment to the animals that were under his care. Some animal diseases are problematic for humans too. If they don't get sick any more, does that mean they will live a lot longer? Even today some tortoises can live for a great number of years.
 

Cathii

Well-known member
The problem is, we have learned to distrust humans and have learned to trust animals and our pets more. My first husband said, "It's either me or the dog, I thought about it a minute.... (boy, did he get mad.") Animals do show far more loyalty and have many times saved lives, and have helped us get through grief and even sensed danger in us as humans. We are so out of touch with Jehovah's original intentions for our relationship with animals. So then the whole system that Jehovah has put into place is out of balance.
Christ did not die for the animal kingdom.. Who knows what's in store for us in the new earth and the reality of where we all fit together sharing this planet. All creation is waiting for the kingdom.
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
This poses another related question for me. Will animals get sick? Now we have to take our pets to the vet for all sorts of problems that affect them.
I don't see any reference to Adam having to give treatment to the animals that were under his care. Some animal diseases are problematic for humans too. If they don't get sick any more, does that mean they will live a lot longer? Even today some tortoises can live for a great number of years.
Great point. Humans only get sick due to inherited sin. Sickness is what leads to death if we are not killed in an accident or murdered.

What got me going is learning about Hydras and Salamanders. Both can have limbs cut off and grow new ones. In fact, here's an article showing that Hydras do not age and they live forever:


So why would Jehovah give the lower species these rejuvenative powers and not higher mammals?
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
Jesus didn't sacrifice his life for animals. The apostle Peter acknowledged that animals are born to die. "But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own [course of] destruction..."
This scripture in 2 Peter is well describing the Gladiator games and circuses that Peter's audience would have been familiar with. Animals were indeed "caught and destroyed" in those settings.

However, I don't think that Peter was describing conditions for animals in the New System, because humans can be "caught and destroyed" too, since the word "destroyed" denotes killing and thus, an untimely death.

The question is: if these animals exist in paradise where they will not be caught nor destroyed by humans, then will they die?

As I mentioned in a comment below, humans only get sick due to inherited sin. Animals get sick, too. Why? And is that God's purpose for them?

In fact, Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 says:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21​

New International Version​

19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”


and then in the New World translation verse 18 adds more:

18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.q 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

Earlier in that same chapter it says this:

14 I have come to know that everything the true God makes will endure forever.

Romans 8:22 says this:

22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.

But these verses and others have caused me to take a second look at the whole issue. What is meant by "all creation"? Could it not also include animals?

While the Bible says that Jesus died for humans, will not his rule also bring blessings to the earth such as control over the weather and a restored ecosystem and abundant crops and a beautiful paradise. Would it not make sense then, that if the earth will be restored and humans will be restored, that there would also be some sort of benefit to animals as well? Especially given that if Jehovah is going to bring back animals that went extinct, he would either have to re-create that species fresh, or he would resurrect the ones that have already lived and died.

The Hydra and Salamander are able to regrow limbs if they are cut off. Indefinitely. And hydras can theoretically live forever. What does that mean for the rest of the animal kingdom?

Thoughts that I am pondering.....
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
Me and my mum often bring this up. If animals were able to live eternally with people in the new system, then also bugs and bacteria also must live eternally, which is impossible.
My original thread was talking about mammals specifically or animals that have nervous systems.

That said, dormant bacteria can return back to life when exposed to the right conditions but they can also be killed.

I do not see insects living forever, nor being resurrected.

Higher life forms like hydras and salamanders can regrow limbs and tails if cut off and hydras can live forever.

But the bacteria and insects don't have spinal chords nor nervous systems and thus are not sentient like mammals so I do not see them living forever.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
...this is one thing I agree with WT on, and to be honest there are a few...but this needs very little explanation, and this short concise verse also contains the context as well. Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man, sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and death spread to all men, because they had all sinned."

So mankind dies because of sin. Animals do not die because of "sin." Animals did not rebel. Ecc. 3:11...God put eternity in the hearts of men. Also, animals do not have the cognitive capacity of free will that we have!


I am going to go ahead and say this....and as tactfully as possible. I am 100% an animal lover myself. They are one of the best demonstrations that we have a creator, and a loving creator at that. But no offense to anyone, and I am going to relate a personal experience to back this up, but I find it a little offensive, that people think animals will or should be resurrected.

My Mom was married to my Father for 50 years. Without going into all the details, my younger brother due to a handicap, remains at home to this day, my Mom is in her 80's. I gave my brother a kitten from a litter of kittens that my cat, had, had.

My father died in his late 70's, and a couple years later, or whatever it was, my brothers cat died. Which because they all lived together was the family cat.

I had had a contentious upbringing, but had reconciled with my father, who knew the bible better than anyone I have ever known. No one had ever even come close until I found RK. But in my adult years I got very, very close to my father. Talking to him almost everyday. At least weekly. I have posted this a couple times, but i lost two older brothers due to suicide. This was in part I am convinced, because of the prevailing brainwashing attitude that WT has on people.

In any case, while my father was still alive, and when all this garbage was boiling over, that eventually led to the suicides of my two adult and married brothers, my father told me, "you're the only one of my sons (five sons) who make any sense."

About 5 years later my Father died. Then a few years later the cat died. At my fathers funeral, after having lost two brothers, and a whole bunch of other uniquely JW experiences, I cried at my fathers "memorial", and could hardly contain myself. I was a grown man, married twice by now, and this was the most devastated I had been. Certainly the loss of two brothers and now my father had a cumulative effect on me to be sure.


But a few years later the cat died. And what did my Mom say to me? "This is harder than losing your father because the cat isn't going to be resurrected." The cat, who couldn't talk, who poops in a box, that they had had for a brief time relative to my parents marriage, the loss of a cat, was more devastating than the loss of her husband, my father and the father of my Mom's kids!

I'm sorry, but I have a problem with this. Maybe the issue is because of this wicked system, we make friends more easily with our pets, but frankly, I think we need perspective when it comes to this notion that animals will or should be resurrected.
 

DR75 less 1

Well-known member
Jehovah made Adam and Eve to live forever. The bible shows that there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Hard to imagine animals as unrighteous. Animals living forever and being resurrected? don't think so. All those who have lost pets, and said pets show up hundreds of years from now, would that confirm animals get resurrected? Anyway.
 

goldie

Well-known member
how will animals die? will they be in pain? so in paradise animals will still die and we won't be sad? is this what perfection is? just trying to wrap my head around the logistics of this, besides the concept of waiting on jehovah to see
No one can dogmatically say whether or not Jehovah will bring back our beloved pets! If this is truly one's hearts desire there is NOTHING that says he can't or won't!!! Jehovah can do anything he chooses at any given moment and he can change his mind and do something he hadn't originally intended on doing! So never say never!!! nothing is impossible for Jehovah and he guarantees us he will give us our hearts desire!! Trust in Jehovah With All Your Heart and do not lean upon your own understanding!
He will satisfy the desire of every living thing!!!! Trust him!
 
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StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
...this is one thing I agree with WT on, and to be honest there are a few...but this needs very little explanation, and this short concise verse also contains the context as well. Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man, sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and death spread to all men, because they had all sinned."

So mankind dies because of sin. Animals do not die because of "sin." Animals did not rebel. Ecc. 3:11...God put eternity in the hearts of men. Also, animals do not have the cognitive capacity of free will that we have!


I am going to go ahead and say this....and as tactfully as possible. I am 100% an animal lover myself. They are one of the best demonstrations that we have a creator, and a loving creator at that. But no offense to anyone, and I am going to relate a personal experience to back this up, but I find it a little offensive, that people think animals will or should be resurrected.

My Mom was married to my Father for 50 years. Without going into all the details, my younger brother due to a handicap, remains at home to this day, my Mom is in her 80's. I gave my brother a kitten from a litter of kittens that my cat, had, had.

My father died in his late 70's, and a couple years later, or whatever it was, my brothers cat died. Which because they all lived together was the family cat.

I had had a contentious upbringing, but had reconciled with my father, who knew the bible better than anyone I have ever known. No one had ever even come close until I found RK. But in my adult years I got very, very close to my father. Talking to him almost everyday. At least weekly. I have posted this a couple times, but i lost two older brothers due to suicide. This was in part I am convinced, because of the prevailing brainwashing attitude that WT has on people.

In any case, while my father was still alive, and when all this garbage was boiling over, that eventually led to the suicides of my two adult and married brothers, my father told me, "you're the only one of my sons (five sons) who make any sense."

About 5 years later my Father died. Then a few years later the cat died. At my fathers funeral, after having lost two brothers, and a whole bunch of other uniquely JW experiences, I cried at my fathers "memorial", and could hardly contain myself. I was a grown man, married twice by now, and this was the most devastated I had been. Certainly the loss of two brothers and now my father had a cumulative effect on me to be sure.


But a few years later the cat died. And what did my Mom say to me? "This is harder than losing your father because the cat isn't going to be resurrected." The cat, who couldn't talk, who poops in a box, that they had had for a brief time relative to my parents marriage, the loss of a cat, was more devastating than the loss of her husband, my father and the father of my Mom's kids!

I'm sorry, but I have a problem with this. Maybe the issue is because of this wicked system, we make friends more easily with our pets, but frankly, I think we need perspective when it comes to this notion that animals will or should be resurrected.
Of course you know that my heart goes out to you for the tragedies that you've experienced in your family. I will be so happy to be right by your side welcoming back your dear brothers and father. Your mother said a very hurtful thing whether or not she realized it. It was not the purpose of my post to disrespect your father's memory. It was never my purpose to say that animals are more important than humans.

I know this is really raw for you and just know that Jehovah is going to heal these wounds by undoing Satan's wicked works that have wreaked havoc in your family. Hugs.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
No one can dogmatically say whether or not Jehovah will bring back our beloved pets! If this is truly one's hearts desire there is NOTHING that says he can't or won't!!! Jehovah can do anything he chooses at any given moment and he can change his mind and do something he hadn't originally intended to do! So never say never!!! nothing is impossible for Jehovah and he guarantees us he will give us our hearts desire!! Trust in Jehovah With All Your Heart and do not lean upon your own understanding!
He will satisfy the desire of every living thing!!!! Trust him!
A beautiful contextual pun…..”DOGmatically” when speaking of pets. All things are possible, and one possibility is certain if animals are to be eternal is that there will be rather a lot of them unless their breeding instincts are curtailed - the same is true in humans. Thus something has to change, be it physical, mental or geographical location. As you say, we cannot rely on what is ‘normal’ for us. We do not live in normal times and have not done so for 6,000 years. If, as has been pointed out, that the food chain we witness as ‘normal’ now is not applicable in the kingdom, then clearly there will be a new norm that we can both relate to and sustain. It is difficult to factor death into the cyclical issues of nature, because what we see now is a result of the fall of man. The system of nature does not need death (as is presumed) to replenish nutrients necessary to its cycles of regrowth, but it does require decay and seasons (or put another way, cycles of replenishment). However, one has to ask why, if animals were not to come under the curse of man, why they should also die. There was a reason therefore why Jehovah instituted the death of animals before the flood - as appears to be the case. Even so, it appears that there will be new creations also. Perhaps we should investigate further and more deeply, what exactly death is, because it is two fold in that it can either be resurrected or not and remarkably, that is a choice. If it is a choice then, does life cease to exist if it can be animated again? What then is animation of life. And is death a dormancy or an extinction if they amount to the same thing?
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
A beautiful contextual pun…..”DOGmatically” when speaking of pets. All things are possible, and one possibility is certain if animals are to be eternal is that there will be rather a lot of them unless their breeding instincts are curtailed - the same is true in humans. Thus something has to change, be it physical, mental or geographical location. As you say, we cannot rely on what is ‘normal’ for us. We do not live in normal times and have not done so for 6,000 years. If, as has been pointed out, that the food chain we witness as ‘normal’ now is not applicable in the kingdom, then clearly there will be a new norm that we can both relate to and sustain. It is difficult to factor death into the cyclical issues of nature, because what we see now is a result of the fall of man. The system of nature does not need death (as is presumed) to replenish nutrients necessary to its cycles of regrowth, but it does require decay and seasons (or put another way, cycles of replenishment). However, one has to ask why, if animals were not to come under the curse of man, why they should also die. There was a reason therefore why Jehovah instituted the death of animals before the flood - as appears to be the case. Even so, it appears that there will be new creations also. Perhaps we should investigate further and more deeply, what exactly death is, because it is two fold in that it can either be resurrected or not and remarkably, that is a choice. If it is a choice then, does life cease to exist if it can be animated again? What then is animation of life. And is death a dormancy or an extinction if they amount to the same thing?
All great questions. I will share the thoughts that I have come up with so far and do so with great humility knowing full well that I might be totally wrong and thus I am just throwing out thoughts and they might just be that and no more. I do, however, appreciate the spirit that CT Russell used in approaching the scriptures, with an open mind, devoid of any pre-conceived ideas, and let the scriptures interpret themselves.

So, my ideas are not meant to trigger or offend anyone, just to offer a fresh perspective and see where it goes.

That been said, here's where I am coming from and what led me to my conclusions: I love all of Jehovah's creation and view it as sacred. I take seriously my duty to be a good steward of this earth and the animal kingdom that has been placed under my care. Therefore, I personally am pained when I read of the animal sacrifices that were required under the Mosaic law and in such great quantities as was done at the inauguration of Solomon's temple.

So I prayed to Jehovah about it and asked him why a God of Love could allow his beautiful creation to be slaughtered in such a way and why? When I see a deer in the mountains (like I did today) it is truly a breath-taking and awe-inspiring moment. They are astounding creatures. I do not think to hunt it like many of my neighbors do.

So I took a second look at a couple of accounts in the scriptures and here's what stood out to me:

Genesis 3:1,

Now the serpent was the most cautious* (or craftiest, shrewdest) of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made.

Genesis 1:14-18

14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike* him in the heel.”16 To the woman he said: “I will greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in pain you will give birth to children, and your longing will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command,‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread* until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken.For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Okay, so let's unpack that last grouping: we've always been taught that there are three judgments written there: V. 14, 15--Satan, v.16--Eve, v.17-19--Adam.

What, though, if in actuality, there are actually FOUR people judged here? What if verse 14 applies to the SERPENT just as the verse says, and then verse 15 Jehovah speaks invisibly to SATAN and then on the Eve and Adam? What if verse 14 is to be taken literally that the serpent had to now go on its belly whereas before it crawled with legs or even flew and now it had a new physical limitation?

Evidence for this is found in two ways:

1) Other versions of this Bible verse say this:


New International Version

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
(So all the other animals were cursed, but the serpent was ESPECIALLY cursed)

This thought permeates in all other translations that the New World Translation:


New Living Translation
Then the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live.

English Standard Version
The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

Berean Standard Bible
So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and every beast of the field! On your belly will you go, and dust you will eat, all the days of your life.

King James Bible
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

New King James Version
So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.

New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all the livestock, And more than any animal of the field; On your belly you shall go, And dust you shall eat All the days of your life;

NASB 1995
The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;

NASB 1977
And the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly shall you go, And dust shall you eat All the days of your life;

Legacy Standard Bible
And Yahweh God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than any of the cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;

So the implication as that ALL the other animals were also cursed, but the Serpent was especially cursed.

Here's a possible reason WHY:

2)

The Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, under the article "Sovereignty", subheading "A failure to develop love and appreciation", paragraph 2:

As for Eve, the person approached first, she certainly had not appreciated her Creator and God, and she had not taken advantage of her opportunity to know him. She listened to the voice of an inferior, ostensibly the serpent, actually the rebellious angel. The Bible does not allude to any surprise on her part at hearing the serpent talk. It does say that the serpent was “the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made.” (Ge 3:1) Whether it ate of the forbidden fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and then appeared to be made wise, able to speak, is not stated. The rebellious angel, using the serpent to speak to her, presented (as she supposed) the opportunity to become independent, “to be like God, knowing good and bad,” and succeeded in convincing her that she would not die.—
Ge 2:17; 3:4, 5; 2Co 1
1:3.




(continued in next comment since the text is too long)
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
A beautiful contextual pun…..”DOGmatically” when speaking of pets. All things are possible, and one possibility is certain if animals are to be eternal is that there will be rather a lot of them unless their breeding instincts are curtailed - the same is true in humans. Thus something has to change, be it physical, mental or geographical location. As you say, we cannot rely on what is ‘normal’ for us. We do not live in normal times and have not done so for 6,000 years. If, as has been pointed out, that the food chain we witness as ‘normal’ now is not applicable in the kingdom, then clearly there will be a new norm that we can both relate to and sustain. It is difficult to factor death into the cyclical issues of nature, because what we see now is a result of the fall of man. The system of nature does not need death (as is presumed) to replenish nutrients necessary to its cycles of regrowth, but it does require decay and seasons (or put another way, cycles of replenishment). However, one has to ask why, if animals were not to come under the curse of man, why they should also die. There was a reason therefore why Jehovah instituted the death of animals before the flood - as appears to be the case. Even so, it appears that there will be new creations also. Perhaps we should investigate further and more deeply, what exactly death is, because it is two fold in that it can either be resurrected or not and remarkably, that is a choice. If it is a choice then, does life cease to exist if it can be animated again? What then is animation of life. And is death a dormancy or an extinction if they amount to the same thing?
(continued from previous comment due to long text)

Now, if we now go to Numbers 22: 22-31:


22 But God’s anger blazed because he was going, and Jehovah’s angel stationed himself in the road to resist him. Now Baʹlaam was riding on his donkey, and two of his attendants were with him. 23 And when the donkey saw Jehovah’s angel standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, it tried to turn off the road into the field. But Baʹlaam began to beat the donkey to make it return to the road. 24 Then Jehovah’s angel stood in a narrow path between two vineyards, with stone walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw Jehovah’s angel, it began to squeeze itself against the wall and it jammed Baʹlaam’s foot against the wall, and Baʹlaam began beating it again.26 Jehovah’s angel now passed by again and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw Jehovah’s angel, it lay down under Baʹlaam, so Baʹlaam became furious and kept beating the donkey with his staff. 28 Finally Jehovah caused the donkey to speak ,and it said to Baʹlaam: “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?” 29 Baʹlaam replied to the donkey: “It is because you have made a fool of me. If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you!” 30 Then the donkey said to Baʹlaam: “Am I not your donkey that you have ridden on all your life until today? Have I ever treated you this way before?” He replied: “No!” 31 Then Jehovah uncovered Baʹlaam’s eyes, and he saw Jehovah’s angel standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand. At once he bowed low and prostrated himself on his face.


So, notice a few things about this account: first, the donkey actually SAW the angel when Balaam did not.



Second, the donkey DISOBEYED Balaam, even while being beaten and refused to move forward because it saw the angel and refused to go.


This implies FREE WILL. Obedience required free will. Period. So the donkey was being obedient to the angel at the penalty of being beaten by Balaam.





So, back to Genesis. If Satan did indeed get the serpent to collude with him in deceiving Eve, by having it eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, and Satan then spoke, giving her the impression that it was the fruit that caused the snake to speak and thus the implication would be what could it then do for her, and God indeed was withholding something good from her, then Jehovah was indeed being just in pronouncing a curse on the serpent itself for its actions when it exercised its free will in cooperating in the act.

So, if that's true, then Jehovah may have seen in at fair and just to have the animal kingdom, which played a part in the downfall of the human realm, be used as the sacrifices for the covering of sins until the ultimate sacrifice in Christ.
Also, when talking about sacrifices, we naturally think of Abraham and Isaac and Jehovah and Jesus. Now, when you think of your next door neighbor coming over to your house someday telling you that he was going to sacrifice his son, what would you think? You'd probably call the police and think he's nuts. But we have no such reaction to Abraham or Jehovah for doing the exact same thing. Why not?
The resurrection. In both cases, Abraham knew Jehovah could resurrect Isaac and Jehovah resurrected Jesus.
So, could it be, that a JUST God needed to offer animals as a sacrifice to cover human sins, because they had played a part in those sins, but Jehovah also knew that later on he could resurrect all the innocent animals that DIDN'T play a part in that original sin, but had the curse pronounced upon them, much the same way that you and I are suffering innocently from the sins of our first human parents that we inherited but that Jehovah will reverse and resurrect us if we die?
Whew. Thanks for staying with me on that. I know it's a new thought but I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
...this is one thing I agree with WT on, and to be honest there are a few...but this needs very little explanation, and this short concise verse also contains the context as well. Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man, sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and death spread to all men, because they had all sinned."

So mankind dies because of sin. Animals do not die because of "sin." Animals did not rebel. Ecc. 3:11...God put eternity in the hearts of men. Also, animals do not have the cognitive capacity of free will that we have!


I am going to go ahead and say this....and as tactfully as possible. I am 100% an animal lover myself. They are one of the best demonstrations that we have a creator, and a loving creator at that. But no offense to anyone, and I am going to relate a personal experience to back this up, but I find it a little offensive, that people think animals will or should be resurrected.

My Mom was married to my Father for 50 years. Without going into all the details, my younger brother due to a handicap, remains at home to this day, my Mom is in her 80's. I gave my brother a kitten from a litter of kittens that my cat, had, had.

My father died in his late 70's, and a couple years later, or whatever it was, my brothers cat died. Which because they all lived together was the family cat.

I had had a contentious upbringing, but had reconciled with my father, who knew the bible better than anyone I have ever known. No one had ever even come close until I found RK. But in my adult years I got very, very close to my father. Talking to him almost everyday. At least weekly. I have posted this a couple times, but i lost two older brothers due to suicide. This was in part I am convinced, because of the prevailing brainwashing attitude that WT has on people.

In any case, while my father was still alive, and when all this garbage was boiling over, that eventually led to the suicides of my two adult and married brothers, my father told me, "you're the only one of my sons (five sons) who make any sense."

About 5 years later my Father died. Then a few years later the cat died. At my fathers funeral, after having lost two brothers, and a whole bunch of other uniquely JW experiences, I cried at my fathers "memorial", and could hardly contain myself. I was a grown man, married twice by now, and this was the most devastated I had been. Certainly the loss of two brothers and now my father had a cumulative effect on me to be sure.


But a few years later the cat died. And what did my Mom say to me? "This is harder than losing your father because the cat isn't going to be resurrected." The cat, who couldn't talk, who poops in a box, that they had had for a brief time relative to my parents marriage, the loss of a cat, was more devastating than the loss of her husband, my father and the father of my Mom's kids!

I'm sorry, but I have a problem with this. Maybe the issue is because of this wicked system, we make friends more easily with our pets, but frankly, I think we need perspective when it comes to this notion that animals will or should be resurrected.
I have a deep respect for your trials and your survival Nomex. Deep respect. I raise my hat to you.

I hold the same opinion as you as to resurrection of animals but am willing to suspend my own reasoning upon it for one reason alone. If Jehovah is the sole source of life, why would he chip away at His own existence? Can life replenish itself? It appears unique and regardless, from where would it replenish itself? We must ask ourselves then, what is death?

Death can be reversed. The expressional ability of the body to animate life remains extant in the body for as long as the body remains viable of such expression - even when the heart is stopped. A still heart is not death but a sign of impending cessation of expression. But though at some point, the body ceases to be animated - what we refer to as death, does this mean that the substance of life that the body expressed suffers the same fate? After all, with the information we have to date, life appears to be an energy. Energy dissipates only into another form.

Are we to conclude then that the same is true of the source of life? We are obliged to consider that there is a means whereby the Creator can recall every aspect of life that we experience, - every nuance, every behaviour, every sense, every impulse - every emotion no less! We all draw it from the same source. How can that be denied? And He has proven this to be the case, not once, but several times. This alone gives us pause to consider that life is an integral part of the Creator and that, far from being individual in its divisions both in animal, human and spiritual expression, it is but part of the same being?

Should that be the case, eternal life or death is a choice to animate or not, an integral part or facet of the Creator‘s own sense of being. That Being, is infinite, the possibilities are infinite too and “resurrection“ to conscious utilisation of the life lent to one for their proper enjoyment, or given away (as is promised) applies to every expression of life that has ever existed if the Creator decides to. Our own reasoning, or the reactions of others in the emotive stress of the moment, is not a factor. It may be shocking at the time, but it is a natural expression of grief and loss. Thankfully, we can rejoice in that Jehovah does not think as we do. When I read the thoughts of others every day on these pages, I change my mind often in agreement with them. Our diversity in searching for Jehovah is a gift in itself and it is remarkable how in unison one way or another we are even within the caverns of confusion.
 

Jordan Seager

Well-known member
how will animals die? will they be in pain? so in paradise animals will still die and we won't be sad? is this what perfection is? just trying to wrap my head around the logistics of this, besides the concept of waiting on jehovah to see
When Jehovah mentioned to Adam and Eve that they will positively die if they ate the fruit, how was they supposed to know what that meant? Did Jehovah explain the details of it or were animals dying back then too? So the only way to visually observe death back then was to see something die, such as animals, IF they did. Just speculation.
 
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