Wisdom of God

alan ford said:
That makes sense, with Jehovah being omnipotent/omniscient. Like he sees all the possible outcomes at the same time, himself being outside of time.
Click to expand...
Exactly. However, one of the best things that i think that came out of WT, is that Jehovah's ability to see the future is something he can chose to use. In other words it's an ability but it's like running. You can chose to run, or you can chose to walk, or you can chose to do nothing. When God created mankind he chose nothing, when Satan and Adam and Eve rebelled, he chose to use is ability to foresee the future. This is how you can explain that he can foresee the future but did not create foreordained creation. And it is a very good explanation.

As far as Jehovah being outside of time...I understand that understanding, i just don't agree with it. Me and the "Dog" have been back and forth about it, with him loosing badly. (He'll never admit it, but he did...LOOSE! LOL). I'll leave that for another thread perhaps. I think time is linear. I think it exists, and if it did not exist prior to creation, the act of creation created time! Including linear time for Jehovah. But time would not mean the same thing to Jehovah since he is eternal. But time exists to every created being, so therefore it must exist to Jehovah since he created it. Let me put it another way, when Jehovah began creation, he created a beginning, therefore he created time. Saying time does not exist to him, would be like saying he exists outside of creation, as if creation has no meaning to the Creator!
 
@alan ford
Possibly the term before founding of the world might refer to one of the great oaths a strong cosmic covenant in texts common in second temple period which if valid would make it the very first covenant chronologically and that holds the creation order of genesis 1 together. In revelation Jesus calls himself the Aleph and Tav (alpha and omega in greek) those hebrew characters together mean strength of the covenant.

Nomex said:
Exactly. However, one of the best things that i think that came out of WT, is that Jehovah's ability to see the future is something he can chose to use. In other words it's an ability but it's like running. You can chose to run, or you can chose to walk, or you can chose to do nothing. When God created mankind he chose nothing, when Satan and Adam and Eve rebelled, he chose to use is ability to foresee the future. This is how you can explain that he can foresee the future but did not create foreordained creation. And it is a very good explanation.

As far as Jehovah being outside of time...I understand that understanding, i just don't agree with it. Me and the "Dog" have been back and forth about it, with him loosing badly. (He'll never admit it, but he did...LOOSE! LOL). I'll leave that for another thread perhaps. I think time is linear. I think it exists, and if it did not exist prior to creation, the act of creation created time! Including linear time for Jehovah. But time would not mean the same thing to Jehovah since he is eternal. But time exists to every created being, so therefore it must exist to Jehovah since he created it. Let me put it another way, when Jehovah began creation, he created a beginning, therefore he created time. Saying time does not exist to him, would be like saying he exists outside of creation, as if creation has no meaning to the Creator!
Click to expand...
Creating Jesus was definitely a beginning as it's the first event that can serve as any chronological reference point I look at it as the zero on the number line. There was still all of Jehovah's thoughts that preceded the begetting as the negative numbers on the line. I'd have to refresh on it to be able to explain in any adequate fashion but oddly enough aristotle argues pretty well in his physics that thought is among all other things a form of rotary motion. I absolutely agree with you time in his realm that singularity is different as space and time dimensions are probably undifferentiated like the four forces merged into quantum gravity over there
 
Last edited:
The God Pill said:
There was still all of Jehovah's thoughts that preceded the begetting
Click to expand...
The biggest issue with us humans, is we try to explain things in terms that we can understand. The existence of a creator is something I am not sure we will ever understand. A creator who has no beginning, who would not be the creator if he had a creator, and by definition has always existed because he had no creator, and therefore no beginning. And yet, he created time, when he created the first creation, Jesus. Perhaps that's what the verse means when it says we will always be learning from Jehovah. One of the things anyway!

When it comes to Jesus, does Jesus understand the timeless existence of Jehovah? I don't know how he could. But does he understand Jehovah? Well apparently. The Bible indicates Jesus is the perfect reflection of Jehovah. This would make me think among other things Jesus lived a very long time before anything else was created.
 
Nomex said:
The biggest issue with us humans, is we try to explain things in terms that we can understand. The existence of a creator is something I am not sure we will ever understand. A creator who has no beginning, who would not be the creator if he had a creator, and by definition has always existed because he had no creator, and therefore no beginning. And yet, he created time, when he created the first creation, Jesus. Perhaps that's what the verse means when it says we will always be learning from Jehovah. One of the things anyway!

When it comes to Jesus, does Jesus understand the timeless existence of Jehovah? I don't know how he could. But does he understand Jehovah? Well apparently. The Bible indicates Jesus is the perfect reflection of Jehovah. This would make me think among other things Jesus lived a very long time before anything else was created.
Click to expand...
Think of a baby in the womb, not only was his personality exactly imprinted with his father's character but he saw Jehovah from the inside before being ejected that would certainly induce his great and enduring awe and humility towards his father
 
Nomex said:
As far as Jehovah being outside of time...I understand that understanding, i just don't agree with it. Me and the "Dog" have been back and forth about it, with him loosing badly. (He'll never admit it, but he did...LOOSE! LOL). I'll leave that for another thread perhaps. I think time is linear. I think it exists, and if it did not exist prior to creation, the act of creation created time! Including linear time for Jehovah. But time would not mean the same thing to Jehovah since he is eternal. But time exists to every created being, so therefore it must exist to Jehovah since he created it. Let me put it another way, when Jehovah began creation, he created a beginning, therefore he created time. Saying time does not exist to him, would be like saying he exists outside of creation, as if creation has no meaning to the Creator!
Click to expand...
Huh? Jehovah is timeless...therefore he is separate from time.
 
Cristo said:
Huh? Jehovah is timeless...therefore he is separate from time.
Click to expand...
If there's no linearity to Jehovah's mind and every thought from infinite past to infinite future were simultaneous perhaps in which case we'd be in Calvinist predestination world
 
Nomex said:
As far as Jehovah being outside of time...I understand that understanding, i just don't agree with it.
Click to expand...
Let me clarify something that I don't think is within the realm of our understanding....the bible says "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to Jehovah." This would clearly indicate time has some similarity in meaning to Jehovah that it does to creation. Therefore I do not believe time does not exist to Jehovah, it just does not have the same meaning/impact etc on him. I supposed you could say Jehovah exists outside of time, but i think that is us trying to explain something we cannot explain, which is that God had no beginning! That is the entire reasoning behind thinking Jehovah exists outside of time, because he was not created. My argument is, that makes no more sense than trying to say God does not exist, because everyone had a beginning. Everyone had a beginning, because they were created, except God!
 
Nomex said:
Let me clarify something that I don't think is within the realm of our understanding....the bible says "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to Jehovah." This would clearly indicate time has some similarity in meaning to Jehovah that it does to creation. Therefore I do not believe time does not exist to Jehovah, it just does not have the same meaning/impact etc on him. I supposed you could say Jehovah exists outside of time, but i think that is us trying to explain something we cannot explain, which is that God had no beginning! That is the entire reasoning behind thinking Jehovah exists outside of time, because he was not created. My argument is, that makes no more sense than trying to say God does not exist, because everyone had a beginning. Everyone had a beginning, because they were created, except God!
Click to expand...
Tme most certainly has meaning to Jehovah, he created it.

I understand what you are saying. Look at it this way.

God has his time, and creation has another. I wonder what time in heaven is like to God? If a day is like a thousand years here, what is it like in the spiritual realm?
 
Cristo said:
Huh? Jehovah is timeless...therefore he is separate from time.
Click to expand...
I said Jehovah is eternal, I don't think i said he was separate from time, if I died it's not what i meant,
Cristo said:
Tme most certainly has meaning to Jehovah, he created it.

I understand what you are saying. Look at it this way.

God has his time, and creation has another. I wonder what time in heaven is like to God? If a day is like a thousand years here, what is it like in the spiritual realm?
Click to expand...

...That is excatly what i meant, time does not pass the same way to them as it does to us...which opens up a whole other line of questioning.....
 
Cristo said:
Since God created the heavens before he created the physical universe, what is time like there?
Click to expand...
I have used this so many times with people who claim God/Jehovah created in 6 literal 24 hour days, by asking, when did God create 24 hour days, and therefore why would he resripct himself to a time period he had not even created yet!!!!
 
Nomex said:
I said Jehovah is eternal, I don't think i said he was separate from time, if I died it's not what i meant,


...That is excatly what i meant, time does not pass the same way to them as it does to us...which opens up a whole other line of questioning.....
Click to expand...
Well, I hope you don't die, but odds are...

Time is a creation. It did NOT exist before Jehovah created it. You and I will never be able to understand that type of existence....PERIOD!
 
Cristo said:
Well, I hope you don't die, but odds are...
Click to expand...
I typo'd that...LOL...it even took me a minute to figure out what the hell I meant when re-reading it...LOL....I meant to say..."if I did, it's not what i meant....LOL...SORRY brother! Not if "I died" ...LOL totally my fault!


I'm like, i didn't say that" "where are you getting this from"????LOL...LOL!


Sorry!
 
alan ford said:
O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are! Romans 11:33

I was thinking how Satan deceived Eve by saying "you will be like God, knowing good and bad” mixing truth with lies and then it occured to me how Jehovah, in his wisdom, turned the whole situation to his (and our) benefit. Even though eating of the fruit introduced sin and robbed us of life, ultimately it enabled us to become even more than what we were created. It opened the way for 144000 to actually become exactly as Gods, having life in themselves. This is just so mindblowing to me.

Do you have any examples of God's wisdom to share?
Click to expand...

Looking at the rebellion differently. As negative as it was that Adam's legacy to his unborn offspring was sin and death. I suspect none of us here on this forum would be here if Adam obeyed Jehovah. The fact the we are here is thanks to Adam's dis obedience. Obviously we're grateful to Jehovah for life.
 
Nomex said:
I typo'd that...LOL...it even took me a minute to figure out what the hell I meant when re-reading it...LOL....I meant to say..."if I did, it's not what i meant....LOL...SORRY brother! Not if "I died" ...LOL totally my fault!


I'm like, i didn't say that" "where are you getting this from"????LOL...LOL!


Sorry!
Click to expand...
I think everybody who reads that Nomex will know you didn't mean to say that. Hopefully it's not a Freudian slip...;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top