Cristo
Well-known member
I don't think its fair when people simply post scripture intending to make a point in a discussion, simply for the fact it leaves the reader responsible for interpreting what they think the person is trying to say, and more often than not, in doing so, will arrive at a different conclusion than its intended purpose. It's an intellectually dishonest way of discussing things, and if you cannot elucidate a simple explanation of your intent or meaning behind these scriptures, please don't post them arbitrarily to me as if I can read your mind. Obviously, I can infer some sort of conclusion regarding what I think you mean, but why do you force me to speculate when you could simply make it clear in a few sentences. Bk Kevin, I am asking you please, to take a little more time in your replies or is this discussion not worthy of your full consideration?
I have provided reasoning why the 'us' in the scripture you provided from Gen 3:22 “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad," was not referring to the angelic creation, but rather was a statement between Jehovah and Jesus Christ-US. The same 'us' as when he tells Jesus "Let us make man in our image...". Obviously, he is not talking to the angels because the angels didn't make us, nor were we made in their image. I hope that clarifies that distinction.
To maintain a pure and perfect creation, any knowledge of bad would have been established or determined prior to creation, through the formation of standards. These standards are the perfect laws that govern our existence down to the minutest detail. This is no doubt how Jehovah and Jesus- us, knew what bad or evil was, because they themselves set the standards before the creation of all other entities.
Because a standard cannot be determined until first the limits of that standard are known, thus determining good and bad, it is clear that Jehovah and Jesus knew what these limits were when they set the foundation of the heavens and the universe, and all that exists within them. This was all done PRIOR to creation, when they were designing and calculating the expense of creation and all that it entails.
(Lu 14:28) “. . .For example, who of YOU that wants to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense. . .”
To again use light as an illustration, the standard of light is set to 182,282 m/s. When Jehovah and Jesus Christ set this the standard apparently 183,000 m/s was bad, or beyond the limits of what their intended purpose for light was to do. Certainly, the same is true for all standards set, as to go beyond them is bad, and not conducive to a functioning universe.
Of course, physical laws are different than moral laws wherein the concept of free will lies. Physical standards and laws are not governed by the individual, but rather the existing physical statutes that are demonstrably set in stone, whereas free will is entirely governed by the one in which it resides regarding to what extreme it will be used. Although we can manipulate light to a certain degree, the standard will always be 182,282m/s, we cannot go beyond the standard, ever, and this axiom of truth will remain forever constant for all eternity.
Free will also has a standard, yet, built within the framework of free will is the ability to go beyond that standard as determined by the one who chooses to do so. We have the capacity to choose to go beyond the standards of love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness etc..etc. and choose to do evil if we so desire. I believe this is where your scriptures above are pointing, but as I said I am only inferring your intent. Nevertheless, one can only have the knowledge of going beyond that standard of free will by the act, or creation, of doing so.
In other words, the only way one can grasp what it is like to go beyond the standard, that has been built into the framework of free will, is by choosing to create evil. Prior to the moment Satan went beyond that standard and created evil, no entity within creation had ever ventured beyond that standard, thus nobody knew what it was like to do evil, or bad. No one possessed awareness or knowledge of what it felt like to create evil, as it had never occurred since the inception of creation by Jehovah and Jesus Christ.
Does that mean that Satan wasn't aware of what badness was? NO! He was most certainly cognizant of the standard regulated by the conscience within him. He KNEW that exceeding that standard was bad. He was fully conscious that surpassing that standard would violate the law of free will, and that once he transgressed it by creating sin, he would be deviating from God's purpose ingrained within him to the core of his being. He understood that once he created sin, he would not only possess knowledge of good, which he had since his creation, but he would now also have knowledge of bad by surpassing the mandate of goodness dictated by free will.
Hence, the name of the tree, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, could just as easily be dubbed the Tree of Knowledge of Free Will, given that until the precise moment of Satan's transgression, the potential to surpass the standard of free will had not yet been realized. There existed no precedent for such an event in all of history, limiting their knowledge solely to the perpetuation of goodness that had prevailed for eons. This occurrence set a precedent for the law of free will within creation, which had not been fully established prior.
Indeed, there is compelling reasoning to support this assertion. If Adam and Eve had abstained from consuming from the tree and still retained only the knowledge of creating good, the tree would still be named the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This designation reflects the manifestation of what it symbolized into creation when Satan utilized his ability to sin, thereby acquiring the knowledge of both good and evil, which up unto this point had only been known by Jehovah and Jesus Christ.
As the scripture you provided so clearly states 'we are drawn out by our own desire'. Satan's desire to be worshipped blinded him to the standard, causing him to ignore the built-in conscience he had been given to guide his use of free will, and in doing so his creation would not reflect love back to Jehovah but rather hate, malice intent, selfishness, etc..etc. These bad reflections had never been experienced before within creation, and most certainly reverberated throughout, and the concept of sin could now be associated to an actual event. The angels would now have true knowledge of what it means to go beyond the standard, and actually create evil.
@Bk Kevin and @BARNABY THE DOG. , I hope this helps you to understand more clearly the perspective from my point of view. It has been a struggle for me to provide a clearer presentation of what it means to say that 'we cannot know something that does not yet exist' as it pertains to the creation of sin, and how this lack of knowledge prevented the standard of free will to be full recognized within creation. I stand firm by what I present, however if you still feel compelled to believe that the angels had knowledge of the creation of sin, evil, prior to Satans transgression, and that they could clearly explain what it felt like to have hate, malice, selfishness within them before the evil act occurred, I am open to your reasoning.
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