Chapter 12 - Collapse of the Watchtower

[SusanB]

I first want to post the link to the audio and the written chapter before I forget: https://jehovah-is-king.com/collapse-watchtower/

For me, from the time that I first learned the bible’s message I was interested in understanding how the nation of Israel could have been God’s people and yet rejected the Messiah and this point is something that I have never forgotten so that I don’t fall into that trap. They had preconceived ideas that did not match-up with Jehovah’s way of accomplishing his purposes and their pride would not allow them to be corrected. Perhaps some of you can state it more eloquently. But Robert King starts this chapter off with this comment:

”The Second Coming of Jesus Christ may perhaps be the most anticipated event in the history of the world and also, paradoxically, the most misunderstood. While Jehovah’s Witnesses do not use the term “the second coming,” in his letter to the Hebrews the apostle Paul used a similar expression, saying: “The second time that he appears.” In so doing, the apostle was comparing and contrasting certain features of Christ’s first and second appearance in the world. And as discussed in chapter five, a second appearance of Christ would seem to suggest a visible rather than an invisible parousia.

Because of their false expectations, the much-anticipated first appearance of the Messiah became a stumbling block to the Jewish nation as a whole. According to the common belief the Messiah was expected to restore the throne of David to Jerusalem and cast off the hated Roman occupation. That this was the general expectation of Israel is evidenced by the question that the disciples put to Jesus following his resurrection, when they asked: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”

It was inconceivable to the Jews that the Messiah would not become an integral part of the Jewish establishment. They were God’s people and had been for nearly two thousand years! And there most certainly was no provision in the Jewish messianic doctrine for Christ to appear a second time! It was inevitable that the proud Jewish leaders would reject Jesus.”

Unfortunately I think we will see a form of this pattern repeat itself when Jesus comes for the 2nd time, the real 2nd time and not 1914. Of course the ones rejected will be Christ’s brothers, the anointed and sealed.

 

[SusanB]

This point in Chapter 12 is a “blockbuster” in my opinion, Jesus suffered OUTSIDE THE CITY GATE and the first century Christians are instructed to to to him outside the camp! Robert King words it so perfectly and my mind is blown because we will see the parallel in the end/completion of the Christian way of worship!

”But when the Romans obliterated Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E., the Jewish system of worship came to an abrupt end, and with it, any possibility that a future messiah would be forthcoming from among the Hebrew nation. From Jehovah’s standpoint the Jewish system had served its purpose. It had produced the promised Messiah as God had intended and then that system of worship was brought to a conclusion.

In writing to the Hebrew Christians it appears that Paul’s intention was to prepare them for the coming end of the Jewish system of things. For example, in reference to Jerusalem Paul wrote at Hebrews 13:12-14: ‘Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people with his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, for we do not have here a city that remains, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.’

In saying that Jesus was “outside the city gate,” Paul was making reference to the fact that Christ was literally executed outside the walls of Jerusalem; and in saying he is “outside the camp,” the apostle was drawing a comparison to the animal sacrifices performed in the tabernacle—the remains of which were disposed as refuse “outside the camp.” But in making that analogy, the apostle was saying that Jesus was outside the Jewish religious institution centered in Jerusalem.”

How do you feel about this? Do you agree with this?

 

[Patricia]

Hebrews 13:12-14: ‘Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people with his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, for we do not have here a city that remains, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.’

In saying that Jesus was “outside the city gate,” Paul was making reference to the fact that Christ was literally executed outside the walls of Jerusalem; and in saying he is “outside the camp,” the apostle was drawing a comparison to the animal sacrifices performed in the tabernacle—the remains of which were disposed as refuse “outside the camp.” But in making that analogy, the apostle was saying that Jesus was outside the Jewish religious institution centered in Jerusalem.”

How do you feel about this? Do you agree with this?

Agree. Jesus was outside the Jewish religious system because the Jewish religious leaders had rejected him. His sacrificial death then fulfilled the "Law" which in effect, ended the Jewish system.
It appears to me that it will be the same type of situation when Jesus returns. The Christian system will have served it's purpose. Watchtower will not be needed. So, "... Let us, then, go to him outside the camp..." Seems logical.

 

[Nomex]

Unfortunately I think we will see a form of this pattern repeat itself when Jesus comes for the 2nd time, the real 2nd time and not 1914. Of course the ones rejected will be Christ’s brothers, the anointed and sealed.

I have said many times since finding this site and Robert's info, history is and will repeat itself. It is inevitable. I also think it is part of what the scripture means when it says, "it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." Yet WT thinks Jehovah has given these imperfect men, running an imperfect corporation the power and authority to do just that of millions of people. No, that that scripture includes the WT!!! Perhaps, especially WT!! Whether they like it or not. And just like whether or not the Pharisees liked it, there's nothing they can do to stop what's going to happen.

 

[Nomex]

I have listened to or read almost his whole book, but just now decided to order a hard copy. I wish Robert could or would set something up so it could be bought directly from him, I really hate giving any money to Amazon if I can avoid it!

 

[Jahrule]

I have listened to or read almost his whole book, but just now decided to order a hard copy. I wish Robert could or would set something up so it could be bought directly from him, I really hate giving any money to Amazon if I can avoid it!

I want a copy too I'm just broke.

 

[Watchman]

I have listened to or read almost his whole book, but just now decided to order a hard copy. I wish Robert could or would set something up so it could be bought directly from him, I really hate giving any money to Amazon if I can avoid it!

I don't have a printery or a distribution network. BTW, I don't receive any royalties anyway. The price of the book is for its production, paper, ink, etc.

 

[Jahrule]

I keep telling myself I need to preserve this information. What if the internet goes down? I got a lot on my computer, but then what happens if electricity is in limited supply? I did manage to get a copy of the second coming pamphlet. But a copy of his book is on my list.

 

[Cathii]

So, we go outside the gate, (outside the WT), the same place Jesus was taken, outside the Jewish system..Is that not where we are now, outside the gate? I am so grateful that Jehovah did not let go of me when I left the WT. It was deliberate on my part and with prayer that I left basically to save what sanity I had left. Jehovah has not abandoned me .. the end of Christianity is the second coming of Christ..everything we have been waiting for.. Going outside the gate should be a happy and holy event, not something to be ashamed of... that's all I have to say about that...

 

[Jahrule]

So, we go outside the gate, (outside the WT), the same place Jesus was taken, outside the Jewish system..Is that not where we are now, outside the gate? I am so grateful that Jehovah did not let go of me when I left the WT. It was deliberate on my part and with prayer that I left basically to save what sanity I had left. Jehovah has not abandoned me .. the end of Christianity is the second coming of Christ..everything we have been waiting for.. Going outside the gate should be a happy and holy event, not something to be ashamed of... that's all I have to say about that...

Outside the gate is how I've always described my situation.

 

[Watchman]

No wonder the WT is trying to scrap the whole type/antitype approach to understanding the Bible. The night descendeth.

 

[Nomex]

I don't have a printery or a distribution network. BTW, I don't receive any royalties anyway. The price of the book is for its production, paper, ink, etc.

I know, and I know you had said this else where. It wasn't to knock you in anyway, I get it. I just hate giving money to Amazon if somehow I could avoid it. But we have to work within this system. Notice I said I "wish you could"...

 

[Watchman]

I know, and I know you had said this else where. It wasn't to knock you in anyway, I get it. I just hate giving money to Amazon if somehow I could avoid it. But we have to work within this system. Notice I said I "wish you could"...

For the first two editions, I used a small self-publishing company, Author House. Then Amazon rolled out Create Space and it was cheaper and I thought using Amazon's distribution might make the info more available. I was wrong. No one is really interested. A handful of people maybe. Oh well.

 

[a watcher]

So, we go outside the gate, (outside the WT), the same place Jesus was taken, outside the Jewish system..Is that not where we are now, outside the gate? I am so grateful that Jehovah did not let go of me when I left the WT. It was deliberate on my part and with prayer that I left basically to save what sanity I had left. Jehovah has not abandoned me .. the end of Christianity is the second coming of Christ..everything we have been waiting for.. Going outside the gate should be a happy and holy event, not something to be ashamed of... that's all I have to say about that...

In the New World Translation, Hebrews 13:13 actually says "...outside the camp...".

 

[Jahrule]

Gate, flock, camp, airbnb. Whatever. I'll just lean on Jah.

 

[alan ford]

Unfortunately I think we will see a form of this pattern repeat itself when Jesus comes for the 2nd time, the real 2nd time and not 1914. Of course the ones rejected will be Christ’s brothers, the anointed and sealed.

I think this scripture is a nice complement:

1 Peter 2:4-8
4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men+ but chosen, precious to God,+ 5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house+ to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices+ acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.+ 6 For it says in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a chosen stone, a precious foundation cornerstone, and no one exercising faith in it will ever be disappointed.”*+
7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “the stone that the builders rejected,+ this has become the chief cornerstone”*+ 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.”+ They are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were appointed.

 

[SusanB]

It’s so amazing to think that at Jesus’ coming, even though he appears to the anointed ones, we who are not anointed will see supernatural events. We have a lot to look forward to. I would imagine that the only way people won’t be terrified is if they have some inkling of what to expect.

Haggai 2:6-7: “For this is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘Yet once more—in a little while—and I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land.’ “‘And I will shake all the nations, and the precious things of all the nations will come in; and I will fill this house with glory,’ says Jehovah of armies.”

Here is a quote from Chapter 12:

”In the 12th chapter of Hebrews, Paul reminds Christians of the awesome power that was displayed when Jehovah revealed himself to the Israelite nation that had gathered at the foot of Mount Sinai. When Jehovah spoke to Moses on the summit the whole mountain trembled and was enveloped in a fearsome display of fire and smoke. As if to dispel any notion that the phenomenon was a natural volcanic occurrence— deafening trumpets blared from the invisible. Paul next explains the significance of that event by quoting from the prophet Haggai. He wrote: “At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised: ‘Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven.’ Now the expression ‘yet once more’ indicates the removal of the things that are shaken, things that have been made, in order that the things not shaken may remain. Therefore, seeing that we are to receive a Kingdom that cannot be shaken...” — Hebrews 12:26-28a

Originally “the things being shaken” proved to be the entire Jewish religious system, with its Holy City, temple and priesthood being shaken completely out of existence. Yet the prophecy of Haggai, from which the apostle directly quoted, foretells that Jehovah is going to “rock all the nations,” not just Jerusalem.

That being the case, it is evident that the prophecies call for the entire wicked system of things to be rocked into oblivion when Christ appears for the second time. That would include that which up until then will have served as the earthly center of the worship of Jehovah, as Jerusalem had been originally. Manifestly, the only thing that will remain standing when the smoke has dissipated will be the Kingdom of God and the children with faith in God’s unshakable Kingdom.”

 

[Medi-tator]

Gate, flock, camp, airbnb. Whatever. I'll just lean on Jah.

It is a great and wonderfully serious statement but I put a laugh reaction because "airbnb" made me burst out laughing, as it is doing to me even as I write this LOL

 

[Jahrule]

It is a great and wonderfully serious statement but I put a laugh reaction because "airbnb" made me burst out laughing, as it is doing to me even as I write this LOL

That's me alright. A man of wonderfully serious yet whimsical statements.

 

[Jess]

”The Second Coming of Jesus Christ may perhaps be the most anticipated event in the history of the world and also, paradoxically, the most misunderstood. While Jehovah’s Witnesses do not use the term “the second coming,” in his letter to the Hebrews the apostle Paul used a similar expression, saying: “The second time that he appears.” In so doing, the apostle was comparing and contrasting certain features of Christ’s first and second appearance in the world. And as discussed in chapter five, a second appearance of Christ would seem to suggest a visible rather than an invisible parousia.

When I was somewhat newer to the organization, I remember using the term the "Second coming of Christ" a few times and each time I immediately felt liked the Music stopped 🛑 and then naturally I would feel really insecure based on the reactions (Kind of like when my husband made a toast at a witness gathering or when I said "God Bless You" to a witness for the first time-there is a learning curve with these things in the beginning! lol ).

Anyway this one was always strange to me, each time I would start thinking to myself after I said it "Wait...but I thought that's what we are all waiting for and praying for?". Nice to know that Paul also used this term and also a relief to read this book as well as Robert's "Second Coming of Christ". It all has made SO much more sense to me. It just all clicked with what I knew to be true in my heart of hearts!