Chapter 12 - Collapse of the Watchtower

Pattie29

Well-known member
I have listened to or read almost his whole book, but just now decided to order a hard copy. I wish Robert could or would set something up so it could be bought directly from him, I really hate giving any money to Amazon if I can avoid it!
I know, I brought a hand copy from Amazon. But I tend to listen to the podcast on his site.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I found an interesting point covered in this chapter regarding the fact that Jehovah will give the resurrected anointed/sealed ones immortality, and in doing so he perfectly refutes Satan’s lie that Jehovah is withholding good from humans. Immortality is something even the angels don’t have. But it is interesting to realize how another lie that Satan promotes is related to this issue and that is the lie that humans have an immortal soul. Notice Robert King’s comments as follows:

In the face of the wonderful way that Jehovah has responded to Satan’s challenge, as if to assuage his own humiliation and diminish God’s glorious purpose, down through the ages the Devil has vigorously peddled the preposterous lie that humans have an inherent immortal soul. He has also promoted the blatantly false religious doctrine that all “good” people go to heaven when they die; as if that privilege was somehow mankind’s birthright and not dependent on Jehovah’s limited choosing and undeserved kindness. Clearly, the Devil intends to devalue God’s special gift before the world by making it seem mundane.

The truth is, though, Jehovah does not grant anyone an everlasting heavenly residence with himself, much less immortality, unless first they prove that they have an unbreakable faith and loyalty. And in order to create within his chosen ones an indomitable faith, they must first endure Jehovah’s displeasure and his tempered discipline; for even as the scripture says our Lord learned obedience from the things he was made to suffer.”
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I was raised by a military man and so I grew up understanding the importance of discipline. There is a saying that the man who lives without discipline dies without dignity and I find that to be a true saying. I find it much easier to interact with people in the world if they understand the importance of discipline whereas there are those people who never accept discipline and they are more difficult to interact with. Regarding discipline in spiritual matters, Robert King talks about that in this chapter and I appreciated that the scriptures point out that you cannot heal properly until discipline is applied and things are straightened out. Here is a quote from Chapter 12:

That is why the apostle exhorted the Hebrews to endure his disciplining—no matter how severe. At Hebrews 12:8-10, Paul wrote: “But if you have not all shared in receiving this discipline, you are really illegitimate children, and not sons. Furthermore, our human fathers used to discipline us, and we gave them respect. Should we not more readily submit ourselves to the Father of our spiritual life and live? For they disciplined us for a short time according to what seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit so that we may partake of his holiness.” A few verses down in that same 12th chapter, Paul partially quotes from Isaiah, where he said: “Therefore, strengthen the hands that hang down and the feeble knees, and keep making straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but, rather, may be healed.”
 

DavidCJ

Well-known member
No wonder the WT is trying to scrap the whole type/antitype approach to understanding the Bible. The night descendeth.
This point in Chapter 12 is a “blockbuster” in my opinion
All these posts are fantastic. I am so glad to be here. The description connecting him being executed outside Jerusalem as symbols of rejection of the Jewish system. I might use it one day with one of my friends that believe that current Israel is the real Israel rather than the spiritual one. They rejected none other than Jesus - so how can the current physical Israel be the one that'll be standing?!

I sometimes entertain that maybe they do this in purpose to fulfill prophecy. Like they follow what the world is doing so they'll be the last religion in the world to be attacked by the beast system. It's a real mess.

@Jess
Anyway this one was always strange to me, each time I would start thinking to myself after I said it "Wait...but I thought that's what we are all waiting for and praying for?". Nice to know that Paul also used this term and also a relief to read this book as well as Robert's "Second Coming of Christ". It all has made SO much more sense to me. It just all clicked with what I knew to be true in my heart of hearts!
That sounds like trying to stick to tradition to me.
 
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DavidCJ

Well-known member
In saying that Jesus was “outside the city gate,” Paul was making reference to the fact that Christ was literally executed outside the walls of Jerusalem; and in saying he is “outside the camp,” the apostle was drawing a comparison to the animal sacrifices performed in the tabernacle—the remains of which were disposed as refuse “outside the camp.” But in making that analogy, the apostle was saying that Jesus was outside the Jewish religious institution centered in Jerusalem.”

How do you feel about this? Do you agree with this?
So, we go outside the gate, (outside the WT), the same place Jesus was taken, outside the Jewish system..Is that not where we are now, outside the gate? I am so grateful that Jehovah did not let go of me when I left the WT. It was deliberate on my part and with prayer that I left basically to save what sanity I had left. Jehovah has not abandoned me .. the end of Christianity is the second coming of Christ..everything we have been waiting for.. Going outside the gate should be a happy and holy event, not something to be ashamed of... that's all I have to say about that...
Hmm. I would like to add something.

So we're outside the gate right? And not all of us are fortunate in having the stability the WT currently offers. It sometimes feels like I am lost. We are like that "refuse". However, Jesus was also seen as a refuse from Jerusalem's point of view.

There was a great video about end of Jerusalem that was made by the society. At the end the brother and his family that escaped it had to face a hard life. Yet, they lived. Until the destruction though, they might not have fully grasped the reality of the situation, and staying in Jerusalem would have looked better. If collapse of the watchtower society happens and similar to that, then something very omnious is about to happen.

Holy moly. If that's our future then when it says "righteous will be saved with difficulty", "followers will be disciplined FIRST", "narrow is the road to salvation", REALLY makes sense. The witnesses with all they had to go through end up being deceived in the final days.

Let me quote again:
Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, for we do not have here a city that remains, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.’
I am going to be in shock of this realization for a few days I think.
 
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SusanB

Well-known member
Hmm. I would like to add something.

So we're outside the gate right? And not all of us are fortunate in having the stability the WT currently offers. It sometimes feels like I am lost. We are like that "refuse". However, Jesus was also seen as a refuse from Jerusalem's point of view.

There was a great video about end of Jerusalem that was made by the society. At the end the brother and his family that escaped it had to face a hard life. Yet, they lived. Until the destruction though, they might not have fully grasped the reality of the situation, and staying in Jerusalem would have looked better. If collapse of the watchtower society happens and similar to that, then something very omnious is about to happen.

Holy moly. If that's our future then when it says "righteous will be saved with difficulty", "followers will be disciplined FIRST", "narrow is the road to salvation", REALLY makes sense. The witnesses with all they had to go through end up being deceived in the final days.

Let me quote again:

I am going to be in shock of this realization for a few days I think.
Hi DavidCJ, Nice comments. Just a further comment and one that Robert King may clarify if and when he see this, but I think the instruction of meeting Jesus outside the gate really pertains to the anointed when Jesus comes and they literally see him. It won’t be through the Watchtower Organization but it will then be ”outside the camp”. But I have to admit that I also feel like I am outside the camp now. I think attending the Memorial will be very interesting this year because the deaths and illnesses are piling up and I don’t think they can be denied by honest people. When Meditator and I attend the Memorial, it will no doubt be a reminder to them of the scriptural points of our letter, which is as true today as it was over a year ago when we sent it. I feel very different about the Memorial this year and I am looking forward to it.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
Hi DavidCJ, Nice comments. Just a further comment and one that Robert King may clarify if and when he see this, but I think the instruction of meeting Jesus outside the gate really pertains to the anointed when Jesus comes and they literally see him. It won’t be through the Watchtower Organization but it will then be ”outside the camp”. But I have to admit that I also feel like I am outside the camp now. I think attending the Memorial will be very interesting this year because the deaths and illnesses are piling up and I don’t think they can be denied by honest people. When Meditator and I attend the Memorial, it will no doubt be a reminder to them of the scriptural points of our letter, which is as true today as it was over a year ago when we sent it. I feel very different about the Memorial this year and I am looking forward to it.
I'm not going to risk it again; Last year I got in the door and panicked; Whenever I try and control my Parkinson's it goes into fast spin and the thought of creating a crime scene of Christ's body and blood all over the place; made for a discreet exit!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Anyone with insight into the truth is outside the gate, and with plenty of reproach. Clearly the reproach will be significant in time to come. For the large part now, any reproach is simply an innocuous shunning. When hate is added, that will light the fuse. Faith is the only asset we can deploy against fear, and its strength lies within love of righteousness. As the bible says, you can have all the knowledge that can be applied to the situation, but unless that knowledge is taken to heart in its translation, then it will be of no consequence to your survival.

At present, we seem to base our reassurance of the times we live in on what is familiar to us. The Great Depression is still with us, food shortages and basic survival. In England, that led to an attitude of “togetherness” in ”suffering”, but that which is to come will bring with it no such camaraderie. As in the Polish ghettos of the 1940s, the rule of thumb will just be to survive. Once self preservation becomes the priority, then all attributes, be they of knowledge or altruism, will become just a hinderance to life. Do not expect mercy. The sooner we make love of righteousness our priority, then the world and its passing becomes a necessary process that has both a meaning to endure, and a foreseeable conclusion. What ever we have will be lost. Whatever we know, will fade from cohesive understanding. There will be no understanding to direct us - except, if we think about it, the attributes of the spirit enshrined in the love of righteousness.
 

goldie

Well-known member
Hi DavidCJ, Nice comments. Just a further comment and one that Robert King may clarify if and when he see this, but I think the instruction of meeting Jesus outside the gate really pertains to the anointed when Jesus comes and they literally see him. It won’t be through the Watchtower Organization but it will then be ”outside the camp”. But I have to admit that I also feel like I am outside the camp now. I think attending the Memorial will be very interesting this year because the deaths and illnesses are piling up and I don’t think they can be denied by honest people. When Meditator and I attend the Memorial, it will no doubt be a reminder to them of the scriptural points of our letter, which is as true today as it was over a year ago when we sent it. I feel very different about the Memorial this year and I am looking forward to it.
Driven, may I ask why you feel different about going to the memorial this year? I feel nervous and anxious about going.
 

alan ford

Well-known member
At present, we seem to base our reassurance of the times we live in on what is familiar to us. The Great Depression is still with us, food shortages and basic survival. In England, that led to an attitude of “togetherness” in ”suffering”, but that which is to come will bring with it no such camaraderie. As in the Polish ghettos of the 1940s, the rule of thumb will just be to survive. Once self preservation becomes the priority, then all attributes, be they of knowledge or altruism, will become just a hinderance to life. Do not expect mercy.
This part is what I try to argue when talking about the GT. In my family the usual response is along the lines of "we survived the war, Jehovah was with us, He will take care", which I don't disagree with, but the fact is that the Bible also calls it the hour of test, so all these things will be to show whether we bear the fruits of the spirit. Jesus said “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” And yet Paul says that it will get from bad to worse:
[...] men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God
I find it really hard to grasp that this is by no means complete and that before Jesus' return what Paul talks about needs to be complete, but drawing from experience I trust that Jehovah will indeed provide shelter. What you said here is spot on:
There will be no understanding to direct us - except, if we think about it, the attributes of the spirit enshrined in the love of righteousness.
As always your response is so comforting. May Jehovah give you his blessing!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
This part is what I try to argue when talking about the GT. In my family the usual response is along the lines of "we survived the war, Jehovah was with us, He will take care", which I don't disagree with, but the fact is that the Bible also calls it the hour of test, so all these things will be to show whether we bear the fruits of the spirit. Jesus said “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” And yet Paul says that it will get from bad to worse:

I find it really hard to grasp that this is by no means complete and that before Jesus' return what Paul talks about needs to be complete, but drawing from experience I trust that Jehovah will indeed provide shelter. What you said here is spot on:

As always your response is so comforting. May Jehovah give you his blessing!
Alan, what you quote of watchtower is an important issue, because it stems from complacency, rather than any reassurance from the scripture. From what I understand from the scripture, we cannot with confidence, place our trust in our own understanding. The tribulation is clearly stated as something we have not seen before, or will ever again. Thus our attempts to lessen its impact by storing food, water, weaponry etc is rather like trying to ignite an atomic weapon with a box of matches in a monsoon. Somewhat ineffective. Sure, having some stocks in will help in the initial outcomes, but unless someone helps us, angelic or otherwise, there is nothing we can do. Have a look at the aftermath of Hiroshima. The only unassailable items that cannot be taken from us are therefore spiritual. We can die with our spirituality intact. Maybe we can live with our spirituality intact too!! Nothing else though. Not a single item. Essentially, the rank and file do not see this. They believe in the protection of the GB. Quote: “Stick with us, you will be safe.” So we need to keep on being independent of each others stock of oil, and save our own. We do that by associating with each other from Honolulu to Oz, to England and the States, Holland and other places in Europe. Spirituality works. And it’s right here, right now! Wonderful, really.
 

alan ford

Well-known member
Alan, what you quote of watchtower is an important issue, because it stems from complacency, rather than any reassurance from the scripture. From what I understand from the scripture, we cannot with confidence, place our trust in our own understanding. The tribulation is clearly stated as something we have not seen before, or will ever again. Thus our attempts to lessen its impact by storing food, water, weaponry etc is rather like trying to ignite an atomic weapon with a box of matches in a monsoon. Somewhat ineffective. Sure, having some stocks in will help in the initial outcomes, but unless someone helps us, angelic or otherwise, there is nothing we can do. Have a look at the aftermath of Hiroshima. The only unassailable items that cannot be taken from us are therefore spiritual. We can die with our spirituality intact. Maybe we can live with our spirituality intact too!! Nothing else though. Not a single item. Essentially, the rank and file do not see this. They believe in the protection of the GB. Quote: “Stick with us, you will be safe.” So we need to keep on being independent of each others stock of oil, and save our own. We do that by associating with each other from Honolulu to Oz, to England and the States, Holland and other places in Europe. Spirituality works. And it’s right here, right now! Wonderful, really.
Barnaby, what I said is from personal experience, and I have seen Jehovah's hand "first hand". I put no trust in our own understanding. He was the one taking care, I see no other credible explanation. Stocking up might be of little help initially, but as I've personally seen, people that stocked up in the anticipation of war had to run away with only the clothing they had on their back, leaving all the stockpiles of food and supplies they prepared for others to plunder. The only way to salvation is putting trust in Jehovah.
GB like to to think that they will have the same level of control they do now, but as was discussed in one of the threads earlier, I think that the congregations will need to have autonomy in order to survive when all that we take for granted falls apart. Provided that they trust Jehovah in the first place.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Driven, may I ask why you feel different about going to the memorial this year? I feel nervous and anxious about going.
Honestly, I’m not sure why. I guess when contrasting with last year, when I honestly felt very angry and sad with the brothers and sisters who are so blind to what is happening, but perhaps this year I am more hopeful about Jehovah’s mercy and wisdom. As the scripture says at Luke 21:28: “But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.” I have learned so much more about the bible in the last 16 months or so. I really see it all coming together. I still get sad and angry but I feel more confident now. Not really sure why.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
This part is what I try to argue when talking about the GT. In my family the usual response is along the lines of "we survived the war, Jehovah was with us, He will take care", which I don't disagree with, but the fact is that the Bible also calls it the hour of test, so all these things will be to show whether we bear the fruits of the spirit. Jesus said “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” And yet Paul says that it will get from bad to worse:

I find it really hard to grasp that this is by no means complete and that before Jesus' return what Paul talks about needs to be complete, but drawing from experience I trust that Jehovah will indeed provide shelter. What you said here is spot on:

As always your response is so comforting. May Jehovah give you his blessing!
Hi Alan Ford, I have noticed a huge rise in the “alternate” economy, there is an “alternate” health system that has been started and “alternate” new sources, etc. It makes me wonder if we are seeing the beginnings of the fulfillment at Revelation 12:13-17: “Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.”

Not that this has already happened but in some way Jehovah will protect the sealed anointed ones for 3 1/2 years while people make a choice between God’s Kingdom and Satan’s rulership. Could the alternate sources of money, health, communication etc swallow up the opposition that Satan will be unleashing? Perhaps it will provide ways to live without accepting the mark? Just speculating.
 

goldie

Well-known member
Honestly, I’m not sure why. I guess when contrasting with last year, when I honestly felt very angry and sad with the brothers and sisters who are so blind to what is happening, but perhaps this year I am more hopeful about Jehovah’s mercy and wisdom. As the scripture says at Luke 21:28: “But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.” I have learned so much more about the bible in the last 16 months or so. I really see it all coming together. I still get sad and angry but I feel more confident now. Not really sure why.
That's great to hear! I'm not quite at that point yet but hopefully I'll get there. So do you think you'll be going back to meetings as well? I'm still in limbo trying to figure out which way I'm going. I'm still very much confused about so many things. One day at a time I guess.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
That's great to hear! I'm not quite at that point yet but hopefully I'll get there. So do you think you'll be going back to meetings as well? I'm still in limbo trying to figure out which way I'm going. I'm still very much confused about so many things. One day at a time I guess.
No. I cannot go and keep silent and the meetings are filled with error mixed with truth. I am convinced for me that it would not honor Jehovah by getting into a controversy with brothers and sisters at this time. Just seeing them at the Memorial will be enough for me to silently say, “I’m still here and I’m still faithful”. But the day to day meetings really don’t offer anything upbuilding for me and I don’t see how my going to the meetings would benefit anyone else either. I can watch their videos online if I need to but actually the information by Robert King is enough for me and the forum where I can express my faith works for me.
 

goldie

Well-known member
No. I cannot go and keep silent and the meetings are filled with error mixed with truth. I am convinced for me that it would not honor Jehovah by getting into a controversy with brothers and sisters at this time. Just seeing them at the Memorial will be enough for me to silently say, “I’m still here and I’m still faithful”. But the day to day meetings really don’t offer anything upbuilding for me and I don’t see how my going to the meetings would benefit anyone else either. I can watch their videos online if I need to but actually the information by Robert King is enough for me and the forum where I can express my faith works for me.
I feel the same way. Thank you.
 

Melinda

Well-known member
No. I cannot go and keep silent and the meetings are filled with error mixed with truth. I am convinced for me that it would not honor Jehovah by getting into a controversy with brothers and sisters at this time. Just seeing them at the Memorial will be enough for me to silently say, “I’m still here and I’m still faithful”. But the day to day meetings really don’t offer anything upbuilding for me and I don’t see how my going to the meetings would benefit anyone else either. I can watch their videos online if I need to but actually the information by Robert King is enough for me and the forum where I can express my faith works for me.
DITTO!
 
J

Jehovahsloyalchild

Guest
Honestly, I’m not sure why. I guess when contrasting with last year, when I honestly felt very angry and sad with the brothers and sisters who are so blind to what is happening, but perhaps this year I am more hopeful about Jehovah’s mercy and wisdom. As the scripture says at Luke 21:28: “But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.” I have learned so much more about the bible in the last 16 months or so. I really see it all coming together. I still get sad and angry but I feel more confident now. Not really sure why.
I really appreciate your comment and feel similar as you. I am beyond hopeful the true flock will wake up when the true shepherd comes. They will hear his voice and follow him. First will come discipline and the trampling then the harvest will commence. The separation of the wheat abd tge weeds. One will be taken one will be left in the field. The sheep's blinders will eventually come off. Bit by bit more are beginning to open their eyes and see through the artfully contrived stories and the wolves in sheep's clothing. The weeds and the evil slaves end will come and it seems more each day that that time is drawing very very close. Jehovah mercy and patience is so rich and abundant. He sees our hearts and knows who belongs to Him. I am exercising patience as eager as I am for His great day and His Kingdom I am learning to have patience just as he has shown patience for me for all of us 🙏
 

alan ford

Well-known member
Hi Alan Ford, I have noticed a huge rise in the “alternate” economy, there is an “alternate” health system that has been started and “alternate” new sources, etc.
Susan that's a good point. I'm not sure about about alternate systems, since accoring to prophecy in Revelation it is implied that there will be a complete control of commerce. But it's possible. It's just in our nature that we want to survive.
In wartime in genereal, black market usually thrives. People have their support networks and they get by. In my memory, it was like this: when the conflict broke out, the whole system collapsed and even though we had money, there was nothing to buy for few months so people had to find ways to survive. And then over time as we adapted to new circumstances a new gov't was established and started implementing some kind of order. There were people from villages selling milk, cheese and produce in the marketplace. As the corridors started opening people went around and smuggled in clothing and other articles from Hungary and Turkey. We had no electricity and water stations were busted in the beginning but later on the started with rollouts every few days. In the beginning they were sending water trucks and people lined up to fill their canisters but later on we had to rely on springs outside the city and had to carry water every day for few km. All this would be impossible during bombing and even during calm days you never knew when it could hit, so the whole existence was based on taking risks. One moment you're there and next you're gone. There were also the gangs, paramilitary and mercenaries. Tribalism was very prononced and people who were ethnic minority had to fear the most from these because they would come randomly, and people just disappeared. Or you could see them lying dead in the street in the morning. Sometimes they would take them in the broad daylight for everyone to see. Anyway, to cut my rant short, seeing that for the most part people start exhibiting their animalistic traits in these situations, and taking into account Pauls words mentioned in the post above, I feel that without Jehovah we're helpless. Elijah was fed by ravens in the wilderness, so we know for a fact that Jehovah provides. We need to put our complete trust in Jehovah only, even if it "may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." 😉:D

Revelation 12:13-17: “Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.”

Not that this has already happened but in some way Jehovah will protect the sealed anointed ones for 3 1/2 years while people make a choice between God’s Kingdom and Satan’s rulership. Could the alternate sources of money, health, communication etc swallow up the opposition that Satan will be unleashing? Perhaps it will provide ways to live without accepting the mark?
It's preordained for the woman to be taken care of in that critical moment. As for the rest of us, it's certainly possible. But trust in Jehovah is what still applies. Who knows, He might even provide miraculously as in the case of the widow from Zarephath.
 
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