EUROPE IMMINENT COLLAPSE

I think you’re both trying to say the same thing but there is an error in communication.

Of course, Jehovah is always in control. He can manoeuvre things the way He sees fit. That means Satan, even though he’s the ruler of this earth, is limited.

Where I think it goes wrong in communication is how far you think Jehovah will allow for things to happen. @DR74minus thinks Jehovah will allow more than @Cherry does and I tend to agree with him as the Jews didn’t believe the temple was to be destroyed. Yet it happened, twice. Jesus followers thought he had come to rule as king in their time, yet he was killed. In hindsight we can all say it’s in the scriptures and so on. But we don’t have the advantage of hindsight about things to come. So with some things we’ll just have to wait and see and trust that Jehovah won’t have us tested beyond what we can bear. For some that may be death, for others it can’t, cause they/we can’t handle that.
 
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But reach out with Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will certainly curse You to Your face.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not reach out and put your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
Job 1:6‭-‬12

No temptation has overtaken you except something common to mankind; and God is faithful, so He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
1 Corinthians 10:13
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture says to no purpose, “He jealously desires the Spirit whom He has made to dwell in us”? But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit therefore to God. But resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come close to God and He will come close to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable, and mourn, and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.
James 4:4‭-‬10
 
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Truth_Seeker said:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But reach out with Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will certainly curse You to Your face.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not reach out and put your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
Job 1:6‭-‬12
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I’m waiting for the…. And.

I don’t want to sound rude, but if you reply with a scripture, could you at least explain why? A bit of context is always good. It might be clear in your head, but we’re not in there with you 😉
 
Satan is a powerful spirit and was given by Jehovah an exalted position and authority while he was Lucifer. God left him in that position to prove that he can do better than Jehovah's arrangement with regards to heaven and earth. Of course he messed things up and caused a lot of suffering and distress on earth and even trouble in heaven:
"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
Revelation 12:10‭, ‬12

Sometimes Satan has total and at times limited control over everything and everyone is not God's depending whether Jehovah interest is involved or not in that particular matter. Only for those who oppose the devil with all their strength God intervenes to help them if they haven't finished their service regarding this life. In many cases Jehovah permitted his people to be tested on to death so His name is vindicated.
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death."
Revelation 12:11

God permitted Satan to prove his point but within a well established and fair set of rules like a sport competition or anything similar. Anytime the devil tries to cross those boundaries Jehovah intervenes. He also has His work to complete in this dispute. He makes sure his work is done despite Satan's opposition (and we have many examples here especially with the literal nation of Israel), because Satan tends not to stick with his word like in the case of Job.
Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”
Jeremiah 1:12
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it produce and sprout, And providing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the purpose for which I sent it."
Isaiah 55:10‭-‬11
 
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Truth_Seeker said:
Satan is a powerful spirit and was given by Jehovah an exalted position and authority while he was Lucifer. God left him in that position to prove that he can do better than Jehovah's arrangement with regards to heaven and earth. Of course he messed things up and caused a lot of suffering and distress on earth and even trouble in heaven:
"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
Revelation 12:10‭, ‬12

Sometimes Satan has total and at times limited control over everything and everyone is not God's depending whether Jehovah interest is involved or not in that particular matter. Only for those who oppose the devil with all their strength God intervenes to help them if they haven't finished their service regarding this life. In many cases Jehovah permitted his people to be tested on to death so His name is vindicated.
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death."
Revelation 12:11

God permitted Satan to prove his point but within a well established and fair set of rules like a sport competition or anything similar. Anytime the devil tries to cross those boundaries Jehovah intervenes. He also has His work to complete in this dispute. He makes sure his work is done despite Satan's opposition (and we have many examples here especially with the literal nation of Israel), because Satan tends not to stick with his word like in the case of Job.
Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”
Jeremiah 1:12
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it produce and sprout, And providing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the purpose for which I sent it."
Isaiah 55:10‭-‬11
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Thank you very much for providing your insight. It's nice to see that someone understands you.🙏🙂
 
Consider it all joy, my brothers and sisters, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that person ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
James 1:2‭-‬8‭, ‬12‭, ‬17
 
The notion of Lucifer as a name for the devil is nonsense the hebrew in Isaiah 14's passage on the devil is Helel Ben Shachar a reference to the myth in the baal cycle where the pagan god Athtar the son of shachar tried to become the head of the canaanite pantheon and failed.
 
The God Pill said:
The notion of Lucifer as a name for the devil is nonsense the hebrew in Isaiah 14's passage on the devil is Helel Ben Shachar a reference to the myth in the baal cycle where the pagan god Athtar the son of shachar tried to become the head of the canaanite pantheon and failed.
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It can go two ways. It depends on everyone's beliefs. It can either be that the devil tried to make folklore out his rebellion in heaven so it becomes trivial and embedded in different nations traditions, or there is no Jewish living God called Jehovah and the Jews only borrowed some mythology from their pagan neighbours. I believe the first one considering the devil is the master of deception.
 
I don't get how I left the impression the Israelites religion was derrivative of the pagans those kinds of ideas are dependant on the erroneous late Exodus dating higher critics love so much. In the bibles timeline Israelites religion predates the ugaritic texts. I'm showing that Lucifer is not a name the devil had before defecting as christendom claims but part of a message that appropriated mythological concepts and narratives in it's wording to mock it's recipient/s.
 
Truth_Seeker said:
It can go two ways. It depends on everyone's beliefs. It can either be that the devil tried to make folklore out his rebellion in heaven so it becomes trivial and embedded in different nations traditions, or there is no Jewish living God called Jehovah and the Jews only borrowed some mythology from their pagan neighbours. I believe the first one considering the devil is the master of deception.
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I found this definition, it seems interesting to me. “Lucifer” comes from Latin, which translates the Greek heōsfóros into the Latin lucifer, which simply means “light bearer”. The early church Fathers used the Latin term "Lucifer" as a proper name to refer to Satan. The translators of the King James Version decided to retain the Latin term in their translation, which became "Lucifer," another name for Satan. The Hebrew term is not a proper name, but an epithet.

The New Testament rhetorical image of the morning star, suggested by the Greek, applies to Jesus. Originally, "Lucifer" was not fully satisfied with his heavenly position and sought to ascend to heaven, to enthrone himself on the heavenly mount of testimony (Isa. 14:12, 13). Truly Christ is the only one who can truly claim the title of “the bright and morning star” (Revelation 22:16).
 
The God Pill said:
I don't get how I left the impression the Israelites religion was derrivative of the pagans those kinds of ideas are dependant on the erroneous late Exodus dating higher critics love so much. In the bibles timeline Israelites religion predates the ugaritic texts. I'm showing that Lucifer is not a name the devil had before defecting as christendom claims but part of a message that appropriated mythological concepts and narratives in it's wording to mock it's recipient/s.
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I am sorry. I've got it wrong. I understand that Jesus can properly be named the morning star but Satan had a brightness of it's own as he was in an exalted position.
“Son of man, take up a song of mourning over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord God says: “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. “Your heart was haughty because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I threw you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Ezekiel 28:12‭-‬15‭, ‬17
When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7
The one who overcomes, and the one who keeps My deeds until the end, I will give him authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are shattered, as I also have received authority from My Father; and I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 2:26‭-‬28
And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Revelation 21:23‭-‬24‭, ‬27
 
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Sunshower said:
I think you’re both trying to say the same thing but there is an error in communication.

Of course, Jehovah is always in control. He can manoeuvre things the way He sees fit. That means Satan, even though he’s the ruler of this earth, is limited.

Where I think it goes wrong in communication is how far you think Jehovah will allow for things to happen. @DR74minus thinks Jehovah will allow more than @Cherry does and I tend to agree with him as the Jews didn’t believe the temple was to be destroyed. Yet it happened, twice. Jesus followers thought he had come to rule as king in their time, yet he was killed. In hindsight we can all say it’s in the scriptures and so on. But we don’t have the advantage of hindsight about things to come. So with some things we’ll just have to wait and see and trust that Jehovah won’t have us tested beyond what we can bear. For some that may be death, for others it can’t, cause they/we can’t handle that.
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Maybe we're talking at each other rather than to each other? I agree somewhat with your last few words? The thing is Jehovah will help us cope cope with whatever we must endure? even torture maybe?
 
Truth_Seeker said:
Satan is a powerful spirit and was given by Jehovah an exalted position and authority while he was Lucifer. God left him in that position to prove that he can do better than Jehovah's arrangement with regards to heaven and earth. Of course he messed things up and caused a lot of suffering and distress on earth and even trouble in heaven:
"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
Revelation 12:10‭, ‬12

Sometimes Satan has total and at times limited control over everything and everyone is not God's depending whether Jehovah interest is involved or not in that particular matter. Only for those who oppose the devil with all their strength God intervenes to help them if they haven't finished their service regarding this life. In many cases Jehovah permitted his people to be tested on to death so His name is vindicated.
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death."
Revelation 12:11

God permitted Satan to prove his point but within a well established and fair set of rules like a sport competition or anything similar. Anytime the devil tries to cross those boundaries Jehovah intervenes. He also has His work to complete in this dispute. He makes sure his work is done despite Satan's opposition (and we have many examples here especially with the literal nation of Israel), because Satan tends not to stick with his word like in the case of Job.
Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”
Jeremiah 1:12
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it produce and sprout, And providing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the purpose for which I sent it."
Isaiah 55:10‭-‬11
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Your comment made me turn over in my mind a fact in relation to Job. If we look closely, the Devil did not act against Job without first appearing before Jehovah and having his consent to carry out what he intended, that is, using Job to discredit God and humiliate him as Sovereign of the universe.

That reinforces in me the idea that Satan cannot act without the consent of God, that is, he governs with limits. And also, the letter of Judas in verse 9 relates that Michael had to fight or dispute with Satan over the body of Moses, although the reason is not explained, but that it had been buried by Jehovah himself, through his angels I understand. Deuteronomy 34:5-6

Another angelic fight is mentioned by the prophet Daniel, who describes an angel coming to him in a vision. In Daniel 8:16 and 9:21, Gabriel tells Daniel that he had been "resisted" by a demon called "the prince of Persia", until Archangel Michael came to help Daniel 10:13.

Or the case of Daniel 12:1 where he says "the great prince who is on the side of the sons of your people." This highlights Michael's protective role in that case towards the people of Israel.

Another interesting story is the one found in 2 Chronicles 18. Jehovah reunited with his angels, they agree how to defeat King Ahab. An angel offers to deceive him and Jehovah himself gave him his consent and also assured him that he would succeed and he did. I'm sure there are more examples in the Bible.

So in my opinion we can draw a conclusion. Both angels and demons fight spiritual battles involving God's servants and even nations, and the demons resist the angels and try to prevent them from fulfilling God's will.

It is for this reason that I believe that Christ is in control, seeing to it that God's purpose is fulfilled. The Devil has defied God, but that does not mean that God has his hands tied. In a fair battle, both armies must have a chance to use their strategy to gain victory.
 
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DR74minus said:
I agree, you did not say that Christ has begun to rule. This is what you said that started our conversation.“Of course, Christ is in control”

But you have not been flexible you have tried so hard to make me believe your statement. I'm sorry if I came across as disrespectful. I was not.
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is the moon in a phase?
 
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