If God gave you one wish...

Ms_ladyblue

Well-known member
My passion is the ocean. Really when I think about it, I want to do it all. Learn to play the guitar. Improve my singing voice. Have a farm and animals and swim in the tropical ocean. I’m not a big fan of cold weather but perhaps that will change.
@Driven

You sound like a sister I would want to hang with. Can I learn with you?

I also would like to learn how to really ride a horse and water ski. I tried both in years past. The horse kept bucking me! And I had a problem staying up on water skis after a dozen times trying to!
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Therefore, that being the case, Jehovah and for those He deems necessary to His objective, can be unshackled from time.
OK. I disagree and I tell you why. In part it has to do with the issue of Jehovah's Sovereignty. First of all let me say that it terms of creation, time as we know it, did not exist before we were created. But when Jehovah began creation, he also created certain laws, like the laws of physics. Things that did not exist until Jehovah made them. When Jehovah BEGAN creation, he also created the beginning. With the beginning of creation, time was also created. I do not believe Jehovah or his created beings can exist outside of the things Jehovah creates. Think of it like this. The Bible says "it is impossible for Jehovah to lie". So there are things God cannot do. He restrains himself to certain limitations even he will not cross. This would also explain how God can see the future but how we are not "fore-ordained." Because he only allows himself to see certain paths. In other words he chooses not to look at each and every detail of everything we do or may not do to infinity.

However, just like being able to give Jesus immortality, he was able to see the path that would lead to that outcome, and he can also see all paths that lead to any outcome. So he knows the end before the beginning. That does not mean he controls everything everyone does. It just means being the creator, he knows all the paths and where they end up.

As far as time travel goes...I'm convinced even if it's possible Jehovah does not allow it, but I do not think it is possible. When Jehovah began creation, he created time, and time is linear. It only goes in one direction. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning..." that was the creation of time...the beginning!

In any case, travel through space are limited by the physical plane. Only humans are confined to this plane. Angels are not burdened by the "physical" space of the vastness of the universe. That is why the description in Ezekiel of the Cherubs moving at extreme angels at extreme speeds would be possible. It has nothing to do with "time travel" and rather to do with physical restrictions.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
OK. I disagree and I tell you why. In part it has to do with the issue of Jehovah's Sovereignty. First of all let me say that it terms of creation, time as we know it, did not exist before we were created. But when Jehovah began creation, he also created certain laws, like the laws of physics. Things that did not exist until Jehovah made them. When Jehovah BEGAN creation, he also created the beginning. With the beginning of creation, time was also created. I do not believe Jehovah or his created beings can exist outside of the things Jehovah creates. Think of it like this. The Bible says "it is impossible for Jehovah to lie". So there are things God cannot do. He restrains himself to certain limitations even he will not cross. This would also explain how God can see the future but how we are not "fore-ordained." Because he only allows himself to see certain paths. In other words he chooses not to look at each and every detail of everything we do or may not do to infinity.

However, just like being able to give Jesus immortality, he was able to see the path that would lead to that outcome, and he can also see all paths that lead to any outcome. So he knows the end before the beginning. That does not mean he controls everything everyone does. It just means being the creator, he knows all the paths and where they end up.

As far as time travel goes...I'm convinced even if it's possible Jehovah does not allow it, but I do not think it is possible. When Jehovah began creation, he created time, and time is linear. It only goes in one direction. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning..." that was the creation of time...the beginning!

In any case, travel through space are limited by the physical plane. Only humans are confined to this plane. Angels are not burdened by the "physical" space of the vastness of the universe. That is why the description in Ezekiel of the Cherubs moving at extreme angels at extreme speeds would be possible. It has nothing to do with "time travel" and rather to do with physical restrictions.
Thanks for arguing! What I was suggesting is that Jehovah is not subject to, or bound by His laws. He made them, brought them into existence, but that does not tie Him to them because if it did, Jehovah would be finite. He says that He has always existed, and that is not possible within the confines of time, I assume! If that is the case, then even though angels had a beginning, living to time indefinite, or actually being of independent life as with the bride of Christ, signifies an eternity. Yes, we are bound by time, but time is clearly not necessary for life to be or continue to be extant as spirit life. I am not suggesting that this is the case. I am simply thinking outside the box. How would you account for the instances of immediacy in the bible, if time was a factor? 👍
 

BillyRay

Well-known member
@BillyRay

I guess in a way you probably will as the resurrection proceeds I’m sure it will be like going back in time…sort of…don’t you think? 🤷‍♀️
I’ve always liked history - world, US, Biblical, etc…. To be able to travel back in time and observe all the great moments in history - gaining context around what actually occurred would be very enjoyable for me.

But yes, talking with those historical figures who have been resurrected- while not actually being present at the historical moment - would still be very cool.
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
The way I see it time in the form we know it is an emergent property of the conditions of the area we occupy much like the four forces in physics merge at higher energy densities and differentiate at lower. So time has a beginning in the sense that there was 1. A first discernible event (Jehovah begetting Christ) and 2. It becoming a distinct property from space in created realms but simultaneously time is eternal in that in Jehovah's realm the heaven of heavens etc space and time are merged/undifferentiated as a single dimension
 

Ms_ladyblue

Well-known member
I’ve always liked history - world, US, Biblical, etc…. To be able to travel back in time and observe all the great moments in history - gaining context around what actually occurred would be very enjoyable for me.

But yes, talking with those historical figures who have been resurrected- while not actually being present at the historical moment - would still be very cool.
@BillyRay
I haven’t always liked history but developed more of an interest in it after learning the truth. It interest me more now than ever. As you well know from my thread on PHARMAKIA.

I remember after the pandemic started one thing that I was curious about were all the so called health policies they were putting in place. It was more like superstitious practices they were passing off as safety guidelines : the masks, 6 ft. social distancing, using sanitizers etc. I had a feeling that these guidelines were more than that so I looked to find out if these were practiced in ancient times. I found a lot a very interesting information on these topics.

I’m also interested in other history too, like ones you mentioned in your comment.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
I’ve always liked history - world, US, Biblical, etc…. To be able to travel back in time and observe all the great moments in history - gaining context around what actually occurred would be very enjoyable for me.

But yes, talking with those historical figures who have been resurrected- while not actually being present at the historical moment - would still be very cool.
It would also be interesting to see Jehovah's perspective on the world events going on besides what was happening in Israel & the 1st century congregation.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Thanks for arguing! What I was suggesting is that Jehovah is not subject to, or bound by His laws. He made them, brought them into existence, but that does not tie Him to them because if it did, Jehovah would be finite. He says that He has always existed, and that is not possible within the confines of time, I assume! If that is the case, then even though angels had a beginning, living to time indefinite, or actually being of independent life as with the bride of Christ, signifies an eternity. Yes, we are bound by time, but time is clearly not necessary for life to be or continue to be extant as spirit life. I am not suggesting that this is the case. I am simply thinking outside the box. How would you account for the instances of immediacy in the bible, if time was a factor? 👍
The bottom line is, this is truly the limitation of our comprehension by our human minds, especially imperfect human minds. Jehovah is the only one who can tell us, at best we are speculating, and speculating in a realm which is impossible for a being with a beginning to understand. And I have no idea if we will ever understand it, but I'm pretty sure we are both wrong! :ROFLMAO:
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
The bottom line is, this is truly the limitation of our comprehension by our human minds, especially imperfect human minds. Jehovah is the only one who can tell us, at best we are speculating, and speculating in a realm which is impossible for a being with a beginning to understand. And I have no idea if we will ever understand it, but I'm pretty sure we are both wrong! :ROFLMAO:
I have to disagree Nomex! You don’t follow logic! As a Vulcan, I can only quote Spock. I have to say that insufficient facts always invite danger, therefore, logic dictates the outcome. When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it! 👍 (Your turn).
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
@BillyRay
I haven’t always liked history but developed more of an interest in it after learning the truth. It interest me more now than ever. As you well know from my thread on PHARMAKIA.

I remember after the pandemic started one thing that I was curious about were all the so called health policies they were putting in place. It was more like superstitious practices they were passing off as safety guidelines : the masks, 6 ft. social distancing, using sanitizers etc. I had a feeling that these guidelines were more than that so I looked to find out if these were practiced in ancient times. I found a lot a very interesting information on these topics.

I’m also interested in other history too, like ones you mentioned in your comment.
Have a look at the medical enforcements put on people during the Spanish flu pandemic of 1917-1921. In Britain, people who did not wear masks were actually jailed. Be that as it may, with a few elaborations, it seems that the British government simply looked in records from those dates and copied them. If you look in Fuller’s Church History 1649 (internet has copies), the rules and regulations for Monks is very close to that which the watchtower adopts for bethel - and with the same outcomes. It’s very true that if we don’t learn from history, it will repeat itself.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
You don’t follow logic! As a Vulcan, I can only quote Spock.
When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
First of all the Bible clearly states even Jehovah is limited, for example it says it "is impossible for Jehovah to lie." Extend that to all the things that make Jehovah righteous, anything unrighteous is something that is impossible for Jehovah. So in that context, yes Jehovah is bond to his own laws, the only debate is where does that begin and or end.

So let's look at it as I said before from the standpoint of Jehovah's Sovereignty. Jehovah did not execute the rebels, why? Because with the passage of time, or as the saying goes, "time will tell", the issue would resolve itself. But let's look at it another way. If in fact time is not linear, in other words the passage of time is real, and it only really goes in one linear direction, therefore once something takes place it's done and there is no changing that.

The best way to reason this out, for example is scriptures like the one in Psalms 37:10 about the wicked, "you will give attention to their place and they will not be". Let's take this further. If time was not linear, in other words once time passes it is done, over, no longer exists, unless that is in fact the case, this means that at some point in time Satan and this system of things will always exists. Albeit the past, but if time does not exists to Jehovah the way you think, that means Satan never really goes away, he'll always exists somewhere in time. Which of course is not possible.

Once this system ends it's over and will no longer exists anywhere, except in our memories, but even then, the bible even says those things will not be brought up into our minds. I am right you are wrong, nana,na,boo,boo. 😝
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Let's all agree I just crushed BTD! If he is right that means Satan will always exists, but if I am right he will actually be destroyed, just like I destroyed BTD argument!!! :p
:p:p😜😜😜😜

And your Vulcan logic needs work my friend! You need a lot more Vulcan meditation, to dislodge yourself from your emotional attachment to such illogical reasoning!

I love you though man!
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
In the 1990's a lot of people were flirting with the notion the future has a sort of gravity to it whether nature is singular or plural timelines the outcome at some point converges at something fixed. That certainly would make sense in reconciling Jehovah's purposes with free will him projecting his will into points so that our influence on how things play out is directly proportional to how close or far we are from convergence points of probability.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
First of all the Bible clearly states even Jehovah is limited, for example it says it "is impossible for Jehovah to lie." Extend that to all the things that make Jehovah righteous, anything unrighteous is something that is impossible for Jehovah. So in that context, yes Jehovah is bond to his own laws, the only debate is where does that begin and or end.

So let's look at it as I said before from the standpoint of Jehovah's Sovereignty. Jehovah did not execute the rebels, why? Because with the passage of time, or as the saying goes, "time will tell", the issue would resolve itself. But let's look at it another way. If in fact time is not linear, in other words the passage of time is real, and it only really goes in one linear direction, therefore once something takes place it's done and there is no changing that.

The best way to reason this out, for example is scriptures like the one in Psalms 37:10 about the wicked, "you will give attention to their place and they will not be". Let's take this further. If time was not linear, in other words once time passes it is done, over, no longer exists, unless that is in fact the case, this means that at some point in time Satan and this system of things will always exists. Albeit the past, but if time does not exists to Jehovah the way you think, that means Satan never really goes away, he'll always exists somewhere in time. Which of course is not possible.

Once this system ends it's over and will no longer exists anywhere, except in our memories, but even then, the bible even says those things will not be brought up into our minds. I am right you are wrong, nana,na,boo,boo. 😝
Time is in fact manipulated by gravity, and the further away one goes from earth, the slower the time is relative to the position of the observer, but also factually. If you were far enough away from earth, you could see history. So you are correct in that things that existed, can not be un-existed, but that they are unchangeable, unless one could employ the theory of “folding” space - and it appears that the theory is possible, but certainly not achievable as yet by man. Yet the fact that time could be manipulated in such a way, does rather engender the thinking that movement within it could be instantaneous. Regardless of the mechanics of time, Jehovah knows all things and sees all things and is aware of the future as his prophesy becomes true - does it not? So therefore not subject to it? - and is recorded in detail thousands of years beforehand. That suggests an omnipresence, and certainly a liquidity of movement within the realms of time - suggesting that though time may constrain us, it has no hold on Jehovah - hence adding credence to suggestion that He is unaffected by it. That being the case, then as the “law-maker” it is for Jehovah to maintain the subjugation of law unto Himself. As to “not being brought to mind”, you could well be right in that if the past is eradicated both intellectually and materially - but for one point, and that is that the whole reason for our predicament is to prove the issues of Jehovah‘s sovereignty - thus the principle, and the example will be for time indefinite as a point of reference. Work your way out of that one! 👍
 
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