Mail Bag Question - What is the end?

MickHewitt

Well-known member
This scripture comes to mind about the resurrection of the dead ones first, but not caught up yet to heaven together with the Lord.

Revelation 6:9-11 “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.”
Then when they are caught up together. This scripture comes to mind.

Matthew 24:31 “And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”
It was at this time, after the great tribulation and before armageddon, that all are caught up in heaven.

But I’m wondering, in the book of Revelation on chapter 11, the two witnesses died and are caught up in heaven after they have been resurrected. After that, the seventh trumpet was blown.(Revelation 11:11-15) But according to 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, the dead will rise at “the last trumpet.” How could you reconcile the two?

Could the verse in Revelation 11:14 rendered “coming quickly” is in a sense, an instant of time?


Well White Stone: We can pose it this way; How can one fall asleep in death when in an instant, in a blink, changed from one state of life to another? Or how do you rationalise the chronological sequence of the three woe's I have difficulty? (I place them at woe3,1 then 2). I must ask though...You quote Posstot twice? Are you her reincarnate? I personally dont care if you are Posstot or even an agent of Bethel. Discussions on this level deserve answers! Let's trawl the depths of scriptural scrutiny together!
 
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Patricia

Well-known member
those who go to heaven their body must die either assassinated or killed in another way ... that is what Paul spoke about when explaining the heavenly resurrection by comparing a seed with what grows after it ... as to the anointed ones who survive during The presence is the two witnesses dressed in sackcloths who give testimony and the apocalypse says that they are murdered ... as for Enoch I did not understand well what you are saying ... you say that Enoch did not die but was transformed into another form of life and is he still there somewhere or that Jehovah did not kill him but made him sleep without pain or suffering in death?
I don't know what to think about the Enoch episode. It doesn't seem to fit with what we've been taught.
But with Paul's comparison of the seed, I always shook my head at that. Think about it, the seed goes in the ground but is it dead? Does he mean before it goes in the ground? It came off the parent plant and it's dormant until planted, but it's not dead. If it was dead it wouldn't be able to sprout. The seed changes .... I don't know just wondering if there's something I'm missing.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
I don't know what to think about the Enoch episode. It doesn't seem to fit with what we've been taught.
But with Paul's comparison of the seed, I always shook my head at that. Think about it, the seed goes in the ground but is it dead? Does he mean before it goes in the ground? It came off the parent plant and it's dormant until planted, but it's not dead. If it was dead it wouldn't be able to sprout. The seed changes .... I don't know just wondering if there's something I'm missing.
The seed is no longer a seed after it germinates and matures. That is the point. The seed dies as to its former self to become a new life form.
 

DR74minus

Well-known member
I'll have to meditate on that. Thanks.

Not sure if this is adding to the confusion? A seed is not a dead thing it is a living thing, just dormant when it goes into the ground it goes in as a seed. But before it can become a tree it must die as to a seed. Obviously when the tree appears, the seed is no more, it is dead, Right? So too the anointed must die as to a human before they can live as a spirit.
 

White Stone

Well-known member
Everyone will not die because of man’s doing.
It will be cut short to show God’s hand of salvation.(Psalms 91:14-16)

Matthew 24:22 “In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.”
Paul plainly stated that those living, those “who are surviving” at the coming of the Lord will be caught away together with the dead ones.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 “For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”
The greek word used in living is ζάω(Zao) which according to Thayer and Strong’s, means alive, breathing.

The greek word that is used in survive or surviving is περιλείπω(perileipo) by Thayers definition means:

1) to leave over

2) to remain over, to survive

And according to Strong’s definition:

From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.

There will be left of the anointed alive but about to be killed.(Revelation 6:11)

This resonates with Jesus words with his disciples:

Matthew 16:28 “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

Mark 9:1 “Furthermore, he said to them: “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.
 
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White Stone

Well-known member
@MickHewitt Sorry, didn’t see your answer as I thought you were just quoting me.

“How can one fall asleep in death when in an instant, in a blink, changed from one state of life to another?”

Just to be clear. As Jesus said, sleeping is a state of death just like what he said concerning the death of Lazarus. I don’t think one is considered fallen asleep when he/she immediately is resurrected just like what WT teaches. Because the WT teaching teaches that the presence of Christ is already happening, though invisibly and that those who have fallen asleep in death during the tribulation will immediately be transferred to immortality, which I know is a false teaching because the parousia is yet to come.

I have explained in another post here what I think it meant for those who will be “living” and “surviving” before our Lords return. I hope you get my point there. Peace to you

Edit: regarding the woes you mentioned, I have yet to read it.
 

White Stone

Well-known member
@MickHewitt Am I a reincarnate of posscot? No. I have already introduced myself. God knows I’m not Posscot.

Am I an agent of Bethel? Thanks for the compliment. Just goes to show how I’ve grown since that day. But again no. Though back then I do have a goal to become a Bethelite.

I am just like you, a lover of truth, a truth seeker. I would be happy to have a dialogue with others, testing our understanding with scriptures to know the truth. That’s why I also have question posed on Poscott to reconcile or scrutinize ,because I also saw conflicts with his/her understanding with regards to revelation 11:11-15. So in some aspects, I agree with him/her like Enoch’s death.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Not sure if this is adding to the confusion? A seed is not a dead thing it is a living thing, just dormant when it goes into the ground it goes in as a seed. But before it can become a tree it must die as to a seed. Obviously when the tree appears, the seed is no more, it is dead, Right? So too the anointed must die as to a human before they can live as a spirit.
No, I do not think it is right. A seed does not die, it develops, just as at conception, the two human cells do not die, but actually provide the anatomical basis by which the body develops into an individual. The component parts of the tree are the developed seed. Thus the scripture that someone plants, another waters, but Jehovah makes it grow. The body is a mechanism by which life is translated and expressed. The original gift of life (whatever that energy may be) has been passed down from Adam and the male line since it was imparted by Jehovah into Adam. It is what we do in translation of that life, that determines if we keep it or not. Likewise with dormancy, the seed is no less alive in dormancy than it is in growth. Dormancy is a condition in life. One could ask the question when Considering our genesis; what is it that has changed in this continuation or stream of life since the first man, that we are now experiencing life for ourselves? Clearly then, we only experience life when our parents provide the genetics by which we can share in it. Life was there before us, not begun in us. Thus it is so that when the anointed are deprived of their physical body, the life that was experienced through their body, is then, with immediacy it seems, given another means of expression that is not of this world, I.e., spiritual. If life does not have a common source, then where else does all this life come from? We all draw electricity from a power station, but it’s use takes many forms. Thus cometh the question of character and judgement.
 

DR74minus

Well-known member
No, I do not think it is right. A seed does not die, it develops, just as at conception, the two human cells do not die, but actually provide the anatomical basis by which the body develops into an individual. The component parts of the tree are the developed seed. Thus the scripture that someone plants, another waters, but Jehovah makes it grow. The body is a mechanism by which life is translated and expressed. The original gift of life (whatever that energy may be) has been passed down from Adam and the male line since it was imparted by Jehovah into Adam. It is what we do in translation of that life, that determines if we keep it or not. Likewise with dormancy, the seed is no less alive in dormancy than it is in growth. Dormancy is a condition in life. One could ask the question when Considering our genesis; what is it that has changed in this continuation or stream of life since the first man, that we are now experiencing life for ourselves? Clearly then, we only experience life when our parents provide the genetics by which we can share in it. Life was there before us, not begun in us. Thus it is so that when the anointed are deprived of their physical body, the life that was experienced through their body, is then, with immediacy it seems, given another means of expression that is not of this world, I.e., spiritual. If life does not have a common source, then where else does all this life come from? We all draw electricity from a power station, but it’s use takes many forms. Thus cometh the question of character and judgement.

Whats your point?
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
@MickHewitt Am I a reincarnate of posscot? No. I have already introduced myself. God knows I’m not Posscot.

Am I an agent of Bethel? Thanks for the compliment. Just goes to show how I’ve grown since that day. But again no. Though back then I do have a goal to become a Bethelite.

I am just like you, a lover of truth, a truth seeker. I would be happy to have a dialogue with others, testing our understanding with scriptures to know the truth. That’s why I also have question posed on Poscott to reconcile or scrutinize ,because I also saw conflicts with his/her understanding with regards to revelation 11:11-15. So in some aspects, I agree with him/her like Enoch’s death.
Could have sworn you was Posstot. Apologies.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
@MickHewitt Sorry, didn’t see your answer as I thought you were just quoting me.

“How can one fall asleep in death when in an instant, in a blink, changed from one state of life to another?”

Just to be clear. As Jesus said, sleeping is a state of death just like what he said concerning the death of Lazarus. I don’t think one is considered fallen asleep when he/she immediately is resurrected just like what WT teaches. Because the WT teaching teaches that the presence of Christ is already happening, though invisibly and that those who have fallen asleep in death during the tribulation will immediately be transferred to immortality, which I know is a false teaching because the parousia is yet to come.

I have explained in another post here what I think it meant for those who will be “living” and “surviving” before our Lords return. I hope you get my point there. Peace to you

Edit: regarding the woes you mentioned, I have yet to read it.
Have fun with those woes! I have been in knots. Chortle.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
@MickHewitt Am I a reincarnate of posscot? No. I have already introduced myself. God knows I’m not Posscot.

Am I an agent of Bethel? Thanks for the compliment. Just goes to show how I’ve grown since that day. But again no. Though back then I do have a goal to become a Bethelite.

I am just like you, a lover of truth, a truth seeker. I would be happy to have a dialogue with others, testing our understanding with scriptures to know the truth. That’s why I also have question posed on Poscott to reconcile or scrutinize ,because I also saw conflicts with his/her understanding with regards to revelation 11:11-15. So in some aspects, I agree with him/her like Enoch’s death.
Any such deep questions are worthy where ever they come from. I would love your take on the seemingly contradictory sequence of timing concerning the 'woes'?
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
No use over-thinking this. It is like the expression that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Likewise, you can't have the original seed and the plant too.
The big knots are untied. It's the little fiddly ones that make for more absorbing unraveling!
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
Are the woes you mentioning the last three woes of the trumpets of the revelation? The 5th, 6th, and 7th?
That's them. It's such an incredible consideration W/S. When they are taken in context their order of sequence cannot be chronological? Now please don't think I question scripture's truth we know them to be clarified 7 times.
 
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MickHewitt

Well-known member
That's them. It's such an incredible consideration W/S. When they are taken in context their order of sequence cannot be chronological?

No use over-thinking this. It is like the expression that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Likewise, you can't have the original seed and the plant too.
I like seed cake. Thanks for your balance brother. Plus thank you for unravelling me from many scriptural knots that I've got myself into.
 

White Stone

Well-known member
That's them. It's such an incredible consideration W/S. When they are taken in context their order of sequence cannot be chronological? Now please don't think I question scripture's truth we know them to be clarified 7 times.
Okay @MickHewitt.

It’s just recently, actually yesterday, I noticed that the Two Witnesses were resurrected before the 7th trumpet blast.

Revelation 11:11-15 “After the three and a half days, spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven say to them: “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them. In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and 7,000 persons were killed by the earthquake, and the rest became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly. The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

Conflicting with what Paul said that it was at the last trumpet that the anointed followers of Christ will be resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:51,52 “Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.”(I changed the word “during” to “at” as the footnote says)

Now we have to reconcile these two verses as we have done with other instances in the Bible. From my opinion, to reconcile the two verses, before the sixth trumpet blast ends, the seventh trumpet was blown, making the sixth and seventh trumpet blast simultaneously, concluding from the word “coming quickly”. But there is the word “past” from the same verse, opposing the idea of the sixth and seventh trumpet blowing simultaneously.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.
This would also oppose the idea that the seventh trumpet would be blown first before the other two.

This is what I came to conclude. A big question and a scratch to the head to find the answer.

Just like what @Watchman has said, no use to overthink about this. Will let others or the time for the answers to come. But I will still follow through.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
Okay @MickHewitt.

It’s just recently, actually yesterday, I noticed that the Two Witnesses were resurrected before the 7th trumpet blast.

Revelation 11:11-15 “After the three and a half days, spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven say to them: “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them. In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and 7,000 persons were killed by the earthquake, and the rest became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly. The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

Conflicting with what Paul said that it was at the last trumpet that the anointed followers of Christ will be resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:51,52 “Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.”(I changed the word “during” to “at” as the footnote says)

Now we have to reconcile these two verses as we have done with other instances in the Bible. From my opinion, to reconcile the two verses, before the sixth trumpet blast ends, the seventh trumpet was blown, making the sixth and seventh trumpet blast simultaneously, concluding from the word “coming quickly”. But there is the word “past” from the same verse, opposing the idea of the sixth and seventh trumpet blowing simultaneously.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.
This would also oppose the idea that the seventh trumpet would be blown first before the other two.

This is what I came to conclude. A big question and a scratch to the head to find the answer.

Just like what @Watchman has said, no use to overthink about this. Will let others or the time for the answers to come. But I will still follow through.
What more knots?...chortle! Imagine the boredom, the apathy if we knew it all? More knots, the eyes of man are never satisfied! Blessing is; where else can we talk about these issues? Jah and His Son bless your watch Whitestone.
 
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