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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
@Barnaby asked in reference to Daniel 11:32 through Daniel11:35 "whom is it referring when it says that” many will join themselves to them “by means of smoothness”. Smoothness or ‘guile’ is used in derogatory terms in the scriptures to denote deceit, and so what is being described here and who is it that is being ’smooth’ in their intent?.

Answer> The man of lawlessness.
I say the man of lawlessness/son of destruction because he's the only one that seems to fit the biblical criteria/description
and this apparently happenes after they put the disgusting thing in place and at this point it's more than probable that the man of lawlessness will be revealed and the Lord Jesus* will do away with by the spirit of his mouth

32 “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he [The man of lawlessness] will lead into apostasy+ by means of smooth words.+ But as regards the people who are knowing their God,*+ they will prevail*+ and act effectively.

2 Thessalonians2:1-17
3Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy*+ comes first and the man of lawlessness*+ gets revealed,+ the son of destruction.*+ 4 He is set in opposition+ and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple* of The God,* publicly showing himself to be a god.+ 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell+ YOU these things? 6 And so now YOU know the thing+ that acts as a restraint,+ with a view to his being revealed in his own due time.+ 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work;+ but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint* gets to be out of the way.+ 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus* will do away with by the spirit of his mouth+ and bring to nothing by the manifestation+ of his presence.+ 9 But the lawless one’s presence* is according to the operation*+ of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents+ 10 and with every unrighteous deception*+ for those who are perishing,+ as a retribution because they did not accept the love+ of the truth that they might be saved.+ 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie,+ 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth+ but took pleasure* in unrighteousness.+

Matthew 13:25​

25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds* in among the wheat, and left.

1 Timothy 4:1​

4 However, the inspired utterance* says definitely that in later periods of timea some will fall awayb from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances*c and teachings of demons,d

2 Timothy 2:18​

18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth,a saying that the resurrection has already occurred;b and they are subverting the faith of some.c

2 Timothy 4:3​

3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching,a but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled;b

2 Peter 2:1​

2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU.a These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects* and will disown even the owner that bought them,b bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

1 John 2:18​

18 Young children, it is the last hour,a and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist* is coming,b even now there have come to be many antichrists;c from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.

Articles for further study.>

Search results for: man of lawlessness> https://e-watchman.com/?s=man+of+lawlessness

Chapter 10 – Man of Lawlessness> http://jehovah-is-king.com/man-of-lawlessness/

This makes sense, thank you Kevin. The scripture points to them, the man of lawlessness, as “joining themselves to the anointed by means of smoothness…”. Is this then referring to a future date after they are exposed, or are we to believe that this process is already extant? I had assumed that the man of lawlessness was active now in misleading the flock, but the scripture appears to point to a time in the future where the “man of lawlessness” that you refer to “joins” - not leads - with the holy ones through a pretence of fellowship and to mislead. This then appears to point to a further intervention by the man of lawlessness against the anointed during the tribulation, suggesting then that the initial exposure of the man of lawlessness continues after their being revealed.

However if the man of lawlessness is aware of whom are anointed at this time, in what way are they being misled because surely, if one is aware of anointing, they must also be aware, as the scripture points out, of the truth? The scripture you point out at 2 Thessalonians 2 1-17 suggests this is the case.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
This has always been an issue for clarification for me. It requires a human understanding rather than a quotation because the scriptures contend with themselves here with the issues of judgement (Contend in the human liquidity and meanings of faith). We are left in no doubt that there is a strong possibility of death - if not from judgement, then certainly from others - even our own family. Yet concurrently within the scriptures we are told that “maybe we shall be concealed in the day of Jehovah…”. (See the above scriptures of promise). Over the top of that is the issue of faith that demands that we remain firm in our “belief of things hoped for though yet unseen” if we are to have any chance of life at all - and yet that scripture alone reveals yet another aspect in this trial, in that “hope” is key. Faith is described as “things hoped for”. So if the limit of our achievement in faith is mere “hope”, then where can we rest our “belief” in such uncertainty in assurance of outcomes? And the answer is not ‘in faith’ but in clarity. How do we clarify the biblical contentions in what is in effect, justice?
Barnaby said "This has always been an issue for clarification for me. It requires a human understanding rather than a quotation.
It sounds like to me that you want actual human accounts of why they have Hope and Faith?
So with that being said let's ask the brothers and sisters here on the forum why they have Hope and Faith in Jehovah?.
So please everyone here on the forum please feel free to share your personal experience of why you have Hope and Faith in Jehovah's Kingdom.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
This makes sense, thank you Kevin. The scripture points to them, the man of lawlessness, as “joining themselves to the anointed by means of smoothness…”. Is this then referring to a future date after they are exposed, or are we to believe that this process is already extant? I had assumed that the man of lawlessness was active now in misleading the flock, but the scripture appears to point to a time in the future where the “man of lawlessness” that you refer to “joins” - not leads - with the holy ones through a pretence of fellowship and to mislead. This then appears to point to a further intervention by the man of lawlessness against the anointed during the tribulation, suggesting then that the initial exposure of the man of lawlessness continues after their being revealed.

However if the man of lawlessness is aware of whom are anointed at this time, in what way are they being misled because surely, if one is aware of anointing, they must also be aware, as the scripture points out, of the truth? The scripture you point out at 2 Thessalonians 2 1-17 suggests this is the case.
I'll get back to you with some more biblical thoughts after I do some more research.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Barnaby said "This has always been an issue for clarification for me. It requires a human understanding rather than a quotation.
It sounds like to me that you want actual human accounts of why they have Hope and Faith?
So with that being said let's ask the brothers and sisters here on the forum why they have Hope and Faith in Jehovah?.
So please everyone here on the forum please feel free to share your personal experience of why you have Hope and Faith in Jehovah's Kingdom.
No, not really human accounts of hope and faith, but rather why the scripture is written thus. Human accounts are unique to each of us and whom but Jehovah can evaluate these? I’m looking for interpretation of the conflict or contention between relying on Jehovah for salvation, deliverance, but at the same time how this relates to how we may be tried with death. Is it for instance, of our own making if we must succumb to death, such as when a child may defy his father when told not to play on a railway line, but if not, how is it explained that protection from Jehovah may not be enough? This refers specifically to the time of the end. As for hope, I hope as much as anyone else, but not necessarily with understanding!
 
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evw

Well-known member
No, not really human accounts of hope and faith, but rather why the scripture is written thus. Human accounts are unique to each of us and whom but Jehovah can evaluate these? I’m looking for interpretation of the conflict or contention between relying on Jehovah for salvation, deliverance, but at the same time how this relates to how we may be tried with death. Is it for instance, of our own making if we must succumb to death, such as when a child may defy his father when told not to play on a railway line, but if not, how is it explained that protection from Jehovah may not be enough? This refers specifically to the time of the end. As for hope, I hope as much as anyone else, but not necessarily with understanding!
May I try to reason it for myself and see if I understood you correct?
Being tried with death, by having to choose between Jehovah or satan, can never, in my opinion, be your own fault. That would mean consciously choosing death, and I'm not talking about circumstances that destroy the will to live. In principle, no one wants to die, the C-pandamic alone is proof of what Satan said to Jehovah: "they will give everything to save their lives" (loosely translated).
But I think it is embedded in the core of our 'being alive'. Jehovah has breathed into Adam's nostrils the "Eternal Life Consciousness" with the Breath of Life, and just as Adam passed on death, he also passed on the "Eternal Life Consciousness." To me, that's why man doesn't want to die without realizing the reason of it. Although at the same time as Jehovah 'asks' me personally, by choosing to die for Him, I hope that at that crucial moment my trust in Jehovah and the resurrection will indeed prevail. Makes that any sense?
 

a watcher

Well-known member
...So please everyone here on the forum please feel free to share your personal experience of why you have Hope and Faith in Jehovah's Kingdom.
I would like to answer this question even though it's not the answer Barnaby is looking for. I have hope in the Kingdom because of my personal relationship with Jehovah. He answers my prayers and is very good to me as I approach old age. He has blessed me far more than I ever thought possible. "...the powerful One has done great deeds for me". (Luke 1:49)
 

DavidCJ

Well-known member
Barnaby said "This has always been an issue for clarification for me. It requires a human understanding rather than a quotation.
It sounds like to me that you want actual human accounts of why they have Hope and Faith?
So with that being said let's ask the brothers and sisters here on the forum why they have Hope and Faith in Jehovah?.
So please everyone here on the forum please feel free to share your personal experience of why you have Hope and Faith in Jehovah's Kingdom.
1. I just do. I just "get" some things and sometimes it is extremely frustrating to me. Other people seem like idiots.
2. The things I learned is in absolute harmony.
3. The effect on me and the people I have seen and the accounts I heard(persecutions for example). It changes people, it drives people. It's because it gives them this hope that this world does not offer not even a shade of it. This hope is what gives endurance. You have the forever in your hearts that way. They might be under intense pressure, even torture, even death but they see the final outcome, that it's not the end. No, it's the beginning. The things you go through in this evil system is going to feel less than a literal microsecond when paradise earth happens.
 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
May I try to reason it for myself and see if I understood you correct?
Being tried with death, by having to choose between Jehovah or satan, can never, in my opinion, be your own fault. That would mean consciously choosing death, and I'm not talking about circumstances that destroy the will to live. In principle, no one wants to die, the C-pandamic alone is proof of what Satan said to Jehovah: "they will give everything to save their lives" (loosely translated).
But I think it is embedded in the core of our 'being alive'. Jehovah has breathed into Adam's nostrils the "Eternal Life Consciousness" with the Breath of Life, and just as Adam passed on death, he also passed on the "Eternal Life Consciousness." To me, that's why man doesn't want to die without realizing the reason of it. Although at the same time as Jehovah 'asks' me personally, by choosing to die for Him, I hope that at that crucial moment my trust in Jehovah and the resurrection will indeed prevail. Makes that any sense?
No….that was not what I was suggesting, but I do find it difficult to explain I must admit. I’m simply trying to sort out in my own understanding why the bible on the one hand states that Jehovah will protect His sheep, yet some how, this does not rule out that those of Jehovah‘s sheep may not make it through the tribulation and may die for their faith. There is a disparity there but I have no doubt that there is a reasonable answer - I just wish to understand it more fully. How would you explain answer?
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
No, not really human accounts of hope and faith, but rather why the scripture is written thus. Human accounts are unique to each of us and whom but Jehovah can evaluate these? I’m looking for interpretation of the conflict or contention between relying on Jehovah for salvation, deliverance, but at the same time how this relates to how we may be tried with death. Is it for instance, of our own making if we must succumb to death, such as when a child may defy his father when told not to play on a railway line, but if not, how is it explained that protection from Jehovah may not be enough? This refers specifically to the time of the end. As for hope, I hope as much as anyone else, but not necessarily with understanding!
Barnaby said "I’m looking for interpretation of the conflict or contention between relying on Jehovah for salvation, deliverance, but at the same time how this relates to how we may be tried with death.

As for me personally I have no conflict obeying Jehovah's commands because I love Jehovah with all my heart mind and soul all so because I choose eternal life over death but at the same time I feel as the Apostle Paul did when he said "For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. If, now, what I do not wish is what I do, the one working it out is no longer I, but the sin dwelling in me.
I find, then, this law in my case: that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man+ I am within, but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my members. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with [my] mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with [my] flesh to sin’s law. https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/romans/7/#v45007019

I often wonder why Satan the devil chose death over life I mean although he's alive in the spiritual realm He's Surely is as good as dead and for eternity due to his willfully belligerent murderous actions, I mean because of Satan the devil's actions all of Mankind has been sentenced to suffering and eventual death I mean Satan being the creation what makes him think he can put his throne above God and Conquer Jehovah, his conquering and superseding Jehovah's throne is just not possible yet for whatever reason that is Satan's attitude, it should be obvious that Satan the devil loves himself more than he loves Jehovah, it's as if Satan the Devil is saying "if I can't have it all I would rather die and in the process I will take as many as Jehovah's creations down with me and isn't that the same kind of seed / attitude that Satan the devil planted in Adam and Eve-yet Adam and Eve very well knew that the day that they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad they would positively die but even though they knew they would surely die they chose to rebel against Jehovah and eat the forbidden fruit of the tree as to be like God knowing good and bad in spite of knowing they will positively die, why they would choose death over life is a mystery to me, I can only suggest that they manifested the same attitude that Satan the devil displayed.

Genesis
2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/genesis/2/#v1002017

Genesis
3:https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/genesis/3/#v1003002
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
No….that was not what I was suggesting, but I do find it difficult to explain I must admit. I’m simply trying to sort out in my own understanding why the bible on the one hand states that Jehovah will protect His sheep, yet some how, this does not rule out that those of Jehovah‘s sheep may not make it through the tribulation and may die for their faith. There is a disparity there but I have no doubt that there is a reasonable answer - I just wish to understand it more fully. How would you explain answer?

Job2:1-13 2 Afterward it came to be the day when the sons* of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan* also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before Jehovah.+2 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Just where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.”+ 3 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job,+ that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright,+ fearing God+ and turning aside from bad?+ Even yet he is holding fast his integrity,+ although you incite+ me against him to swallow him up without cause.”+ 4 But Satan+ answered Jehovah and said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul> https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/job/2/#v18002004


Who Was Job?​


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In the land of Uz, there lived a man who worshipped Jehovah. His name was Job. He was a very rich man with a large family. He was kind, and he helped poor people, women whose husbands had died, and children who had no parents. But just because he did what was right, would Job himself never have any problems?
Satan the Devil
Job did not know it, but Satan the Devil was watching him. Jehovah said to Satan: ‘Have you noticed my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He listens to me and does what is right.’ Satan replied: ‘Of course Job obeys you. You protect him and bless him. You give him land and animals. Take it all away, and he will stop worshipping you.’ Jehovah said: ‘You may test Job. But you are not allowed to kill him.’ Why did Jehovah let Satan test Job? He was confident that Job would not fail.> https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-stories-lessons/4/job/
 
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Cristo

Well-known member
why they would choose death over life is a mystery to me, I can only suggest that they manifested the same attitude that Satan the devil displayed.

Genesis
2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/genesis/2/#v1002017

Genesis
3:https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/genesis/3/#v1003002

Hi Kevin. I have written an article about this very thing. It's not too long of a read, but if you find the time, and desire to read it, I would love to hear your perspective after.

 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Hi Kevin. I have written an article about this very thing. It's not too long of a read, but if you find the time, and desire to read it, I would love to hear your perspective after.

Oh man I was looking for more to read on that today, thank you very much it'll be great to get another perspective. PS I will let you know my perspective o I will read it tomorrow first thing in the morning when my brain is spongy.
 
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Bk Kevin

Well-known member
1. I just do. I just "get" some things and sometimes it is extremely frustrating to me. Other people seem like idiots.
2. The things I learned is in absolute harmony.
3. The effect on me and the people I have seen and the accounts I heard(persecutions for example). It changes people, it drives people. It's because it gives them this hope that this world does not offer not even a shade of it. This hope is what gives endurance. You have the forever in your hearts that way. They might be under intense pressure, even torture, even death but they see the final outcome, that it's not the end. No, it's the beginning. The things you go through in this evil system is going to feel less than a literal microsecond when paradise earth happens.

Romans5:​

3 And not only that, but let us exult while in tribulations,+ since we know that tribulation produces endurance;+ 4 endurance, in turn, an approved condition;+ the approved condition, in turn, hope,+ 5 and the hope does not lead to disappointment;

Joshua 21:45

45 Not a promise failed out of all the good promise that Jehovah had made to the house of Israel; it all came true.a
 

evw

Well-known member
No….that was not what I was suggesting, but I do find it difficult to explain I must admit. I’m simply trying to sort out in my own understanding why the bible on the one hand states that Jehovah will protect His sheep, yet some how, this does not rule out that those of Jehovah‘s sheep may not make it through the tribulation and may die for their faith. There is a disparity there but I have no doubt that there is a reasonable answer - I just wish to understand it more fully. How would you explain answer?
Oh dear, now you're asking me for my credentials, LOL, but I give it a try:

At Job 1:11, Satan taunts Jehovah with his sneer: “But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
Trusting in Job's loyalty, Jehovah allows Satan to "work" Job to the limit v. 12:
Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only do not lay your hand on the man himself!” So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah.”
Now, of course, I know that Job did not die at the end of this trial, rather he was richly rewarded by Jehovah, something he was not aware of during his trial. So, taking into account that Jesus had not yet fulfilled his 'commission', Job, as I see it, got part of his reward in advance, because he showed as an example to us, that it is possible to stand under very difficult circumstances and loyally trust in Jehovah.
Rev. 3:19 - ‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline.’
For us, we know what reward awaits at the end.
Similarly, I see this as a privilege of Jehovah and His confidence in me to be able to answer that question.
Proverbs 27:11 - Be wise, my son and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me.

So in the end speaking with Paul in:
Romans 14:8 - For if we live, we live to Jehovah and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah.

On the other hand, is it the ultimate? privilege and confidence of Jehovah, to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon. During the Memorial period, I realized how special that would be. When I consider that until then (I mean Armageddon) everyone has had to die, including Jesus and the anointed, but that there will be 'ordinary' people who will never actually have to see death; How exceptional is that??
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Barnaby said "I’m looking for interpretation of the conflict or contention between relying on Jehovah for salvation, deliverance, but at the same time how this relates to how we may be tried with death.

As for me personally I have no conflict obeying Jehovah's commands because I love Jehovah with all my heart mind and soul all so because I choose eternal life over death but at the same time I feel as the Apostle Paul did when he said "For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. If, now, what I do not wish is what I do, the one working it out is no longer I, but the sin dwelling in me.
I find, then, this law in my case: that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man+ I am within, but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my members. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with [my] mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with [my] flesh to sin’s law. https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/romans/7/#v45007019

I often wonder why Satan the devil chose death over life I mean although he's alive in the spiritual realm He's Surely is as good as dead and for eternity due to his willfully belligerent murderous actions, I mean because of Satan the devil's actions all of Mankind has been sentenced to suffering and eventual death I mean Satan being the creation what makes him think he can put his throne above God and Conquer Jehovah, his conquering and superseding Jehovah's throne is just not possible yet for whatever reason that is Satan's attitude, it should be obvious that Satan the devil loves himself more than he loves Jehovah, it's as if Satan the Devil is saying "if I can't have it all I would rather die and in the process I will take as many as Jehovah's creations down with me and isn't that the same kind of seed / attitude that Satan the devil planted in Adam and Eve-yet Adam and Eve very well knew that the day that they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad they would positively die but even though they knew they would surely die they chose to rebel against Jehovah and eat the forbidden fruit of the tree as to be like God knowing good and bad in spite of knowing they will positively die, why they would choose death over life is a mystery to me, I can only suggest that they manifested the same attitude that Satan the devil displayed.

Genesis
2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/genesis/2/#v1002017

Genesis
3:https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/genesis/3/#v1003002
Thanks for this Kevin. Much appreciated.
 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Oh dear, now you're asking me for my credentials, LOL, but I give it a try:

At Job 1:11, Satan taunts Jehovah with his sneer: “But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
Trusting in Job's loyalty, Jehovah allows Satan to "work" Job to the limit v. 12:
Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only do not lay your hand on the man himself!” So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah.”
Now, of course, I know that Job did not die at the end of this trial, rather he was richly rewarded by Jehovah, something he was not aware of during his trial. So, taking into account that Jesus had not yet fulfilled his 'commission', Job, as I see it, got part of his reward in advance, because he showed as an example to us, that it is possible to stand under very difficult circumstances and loyally trust in Jehovah.
Rev. 3:19 - ‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline.’
For us, we know what reward awaits at the end.
Similarly, I see this as a privilege of Jehovah and His confidence in me to be able to answer that question.
Proverbs 27:11 - Be wise, my son and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me.

So in the end speaking with Paul in:
Romans 14:8 - For if we live, we live to Jehovah and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah.

On the other hand, is it the ultimate? privilege and confidence of Jehovah, to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon. During the Memorial period, I realized how special that would be. When I consider that until then (I mean Armageddon) everyone has had to die, including Jesus and the anointed, but that there will be 'ordinary' people who will never actually have to see death; How exceptional is that??
Thanks EVW - that last paragraph of yours is the perspective I was trying to understand and you have answered it for me. That thought is exactly what I was trying to grasp. I’m much indebted to you. 👍
 

Truth_Seeker

Well-known member
"Romans 14:8 - For if we live, we live to Jehovah and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah."

We ultimately belong to Jehovah but also we know that everything that Jehovah has, He has given to Jesus. I wonder what is the correct translation here?

in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. Hebrews 1:2

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all time; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:8‭-‬11

Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus. Romans 6:11 Nwt

Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:6

For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Galatians 2:19‭-‬20

Probably I answered myself.
 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
"Romans 14:8 - For if we live, we live to Jehovah and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah."

We ultimately belong to Jehovah but also we know that everything that Jehovah has, He has given to Jesus. I wonder what is the correct translation here?

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all time; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:8‭-‬11

Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus. Romans 6:11 Nwt

Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:6

For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Galatians 2:19‭-‬20

Probably I answered myself.
Good things to consider. Thanks. V helpful.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Hi Kevin. I have written an article about this very thing. It's not too long of a read, but if you find the time, and desire to read it, I would love to hear your perspective after.

Adam was not deceived but she was but because he loved Eve so much he threw in the towel so to speak ,I agree with those point's.

So in essence Adam loved himself more than Jehovah because he chose Eve over Jehovah.

Also in your article it seems to imply Jehovah's at fault because he instilled the qualities of love in the man and woman and I'm not buying that concept perhaps I read it wrong but that's my perception.
But none the less it was a good read .
Thank you for sharing.

Matthew10:
37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.
It doesn't mention wife In this passage but the principal still applies.
 
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