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[evw]

"Romans 14:8 - For if we live, we live to Jehovah and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah."

We ultimately belong to Jehovah but also we know that everything that Jehovah has, He has given to Jesus. I wonder what is the correct translation here?

in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. Hebrews 1:2

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all time; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:8‭-‬11

Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus. Romans 6:11 Nwt

Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:6

For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Galatians 2:19‭-‬20

Probably I answered myself.

Everything you write is true, but said to the anointed; I am talking about the other sheep.
Jesus returns the kingdom to his Father at the end of the 1000 years, that is, as far as I understand, including the inhabitants.

1 Cor. 15:24-26 Then the end, when he will hand over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he will have destroyed all government and all authority and power. For he must reign as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, must be destroyed.

What I realize is that, when Jesus has returned his kingdom to Jehovah, there will be people who are then truly equal to Adam and Eve, before they sinned and lost not only their lives and that of humanaty, but also their perfection. They will not be immortal like the anointed, but perfectly alive forever without having been dead

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Everything you write is true, but said to the anointed; I am talking about the other sheep.
Jesus returns the kingdom to his Father at the end of the 1000 years, that is, as far as I understand, including the inhabitants.

1 Cor. 15:24-26 Then the end, when he will hand over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he will have destroyed all government and all authority and power. For he must reign as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, must be destroyed.

What I realize is that, when Jesus has returned his kingdom to Jehovah, there will be people who are then truly equal to Adam and Eve, before they sinned and lost not only their lives and that of humanaty, but also their perfection. They will not be immortal like the anointed, but perfectly alive forever without having been dead

It is true what you are saying, but we should not forget that trough Jesus's sacrifice was possible for other sheep to be saved and brought back to human perfection. This is the only mean Jehovah provided for both anointed and other sheep to be saved. And also Jesus os the one who gives them life.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they *cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. Revelation 7:9‭-‬10‭, ‬14‭-‬15

Everything is for Jehovah's glory

 

[Truth_Seeker]

1. God, give your judgments to the king,
And endow the son of the king with your righteousness.+
2 May he plead the cause of your people with righteousness,
And of your lowly ones with justice.+
3 May the mountains bring peace to the people,
And may the hills bring righteousness.
4 Let him defend* the lowly among the people,
Let him save the sons of the poor,
And let him crush the defrauder.+
5 They will fear you as long as there is a sun
And as long as the moon remains,
For generation after generation.+
6 He will be like the rain that falls on the mown grass,
Like showers of rain that water the earth.+
7 In his days the righteous will flourish,*+
And peace will abound+ until the moon is no more.
8 He will have subjects* from sea to sea
And from the River* to the ends of the earth.+
9 The desert dwellers will bow down before him,
And his enemies will lick the dust.+
10 The kings of Tarʹshish and of the islands will pay tribute.+
The kings of Sheʹba and of Seʹba will present gifts.+
11 All the kings will bow down before him,
And all the nations will serve him.
12 For he will rescue the poor who cry for help,
Also the lowly one and whoever has no helper.
13 He will have pity on the lowly and the poor,
And the lives* of the poor he will save.
14 From oppression and from violence he will rescue them,*
And their blood will be precious in his eyes.
15 May he live and be given the gold of Sheʹba.+
May prayers be said for him continually,
And may he be blessed all day long.
16 There will be an abundance of grain on the earth;+
On the top of the mountains it will overflow.
His fruit will flourish as in Lebʹa·non,+
And in the cities people will blossom like the vegetation of the earth.+
17 May his name endure forever,+
And may it prosper as long as the sun.
May people obtain a blessing for themselves by means of him;+
May all nations pronounce him happy.
18 May Jehovah God be praised, Israel’s God,+
Who alone does wonderful things.+
19 May his glorious name be praised forever,+
And may his glory fill the whole earth.+
Amen and Amen. Psalm 72

 

[evw]

1. God, give your judgments to the king,
And endow the son of the king with your righteousness.+
2 May he plead the cause of your people with righteousness,
And of your lowly ones with justice.+
3 May the mountains bring peace to the people,
And may the hills bring righteousness.
4 Let him defend* the lowly among the people,
Let him save the sons of the poor,
And let him crush the defrauder.+
5 They will fear you as long as there is a sun
And as long as the moon remains,
For generation after generation.+
6 He will be like the rain that falls on the mown grass,
Like showers of rain that water the earth.+
7 In his days the righteous will flourish,*+
And peace will abound+ until the moon is no more.
8 He will have subjects* from sea to sea
And from the River* to the ends of the earth.+
9 The desert dwellers will bow down before him,
And his enemies will lick the dust.+
10 The kings of Tarʹshish and of the islands will pay tribute.+
The kings of Sheʹba and of Seʹba will present gifts.+
11 All the kings will bow down before him,
And all the nations will serve him.
12 For he will rescue the poor who cry for help,
Also the lowly one and whoever has no helper.
13 He will have pity on the lowly and the poor,
And the lives* of the poor he will save.
14 From oppression and from violence he will rescue them,*
And their blood will be precious in his eyes.
15 May he live and be given the gold of Sheʹba.+
May prayers be said for him continually,
And may he be blessed all day long.
16 There will be an abundance of grain on the earth;+
On the top of the mountains it will overflow.
His fruit will flourish as in Lebʹa·non,+
And in the cities people will blossom like the vegetation of the earth.+
17 May his name endure forever,+
And may it prosper as long as the sun.
May people obtain a blessing for themselves by means of him;+
May all nations pronounce him happy.
18 May Jehovah God be praised, Israel’s God,+
Who alone does wonderful things.+
19 May his glorious name be praised forever,+
And may his glory fill the whole earth.+
Amen and Amen. Psalm 72

Yes, you are absolutely right.
Rutherford said at a convention in the 1930s that "millions of people now (then) living need not die." That was a pretty premature statement at the time, but now it looks like we're on the cusp, that this statement is going to come true and that 'we' can become part of that group of people, which I think is a pretty exciting thought, if I personally will actually be part of it or not, partly in view of my age.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

It is true what you are saying, but we should not forget that trough Jesus's sacrifice was possible for other sheep to be saved and brought back to human perfection. This is the only mean Jehovah provided for both anointed and other sheep to be saved. And also Jesus os the one who gives them life.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they *cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. Revelation 7:9‭-‬10‭, ‬14‭-‬15

Everything is for Jehovah's glory

Well pointed out and very helpful. It is warming to the soul that we as sheep are provided for. It is rather humbling to think that we are not necessary to the vindication of Jehovah’s name, yet because of His beautiful benevolence and love, we too are included. It took me a while to figure that out. The anointed are put firmly on the back seat by watchtower, not allowed to speak with authority or to do anything else but repeat what watchtower says in the watchtower. The greatest and most powerful witnesses for truth in these times, held back by watchtower fumbling about, extending generations rather than seeking insight!

 

[Bk Kevin]

This makes sense, thank you Kevin. The scripture points to them, the man of lawlessness, as “joining themselves to the anointed by means of smoothness…”. Is this then referring to a future date after they are exposed, or are we to believe that this process is already extant? I had assumed that the man of lawlessness was active now in misleading the flock, but the scripture appears to point to a time in the future where the “man of lawlessness” that you refer to “joins” - not leads - with the holy ones through a pretence of fellowship and to mislead. This then appears to point to a further intervention by the man of lawlessness against the anointed during the tribulation, suggesting then that the initial exposure of the man of lawlessness continues after their being revealed.

However if the man of lawlessness is aware of whom are anointed at this time, in what way are they being misled because surely, if one is aware of anointing, they must also be aware, as the scripture points out, of the truth? The scripture you point out at 2 Thessalonians 2 1-17 suggests this is the case.

Robert pretty much covered these answers to these questions in this article.​

Who is the one acting as a restraint?​

QUESTION: Who is “the one who is acting as a restraint?” –and why does God “let” anyone be fooled by a lie? God of love, really?

The question is based upon Paul’s prophecy regarding the presence of a man of lawlessness, wherein the apostle revealed: “And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.” —2 Thessalonians 2:6-8

According to Paul the influence of the man of lawlessness was at work in the first century —if only in a figurative way. As the context shows, Paul —and we can assume the other apostles too —was acting as a restraint against the operation of Satan by warning the brothers not to be taken in by authoritative proclamations declaring the presence has begun and the day of Jehovah is here.

Paul also exposed the presence of the disguised ministers of righteousness, the superfine apostles, who were presiding over the unsuspecting Corinthian congregation. Obviously, as regards those who would issue seemingly inspired messages and write letters passed off as coming from the apostles, like the superfine apostles, they would also have to be respected members of the various congregations in order to have any credibility. They could not be outsiders. And that is why Paul referred to the man of lawlessness as the son of destruction —a designation Jesus gave to Judas, who, of course, was one of the original 12 apostles –an ultimate insider.

But there is no evidence in the biblical record that false Christians in the first century were declaring that the presence had begun. There were, however, two apostates, namely, Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were claiming that the resurrection had begun.

But Paul indicated that the man of lawlessness will be on hand when the actual presence of Christ begins and it is Christ himself who will expose and destroy the son of destruction. So, it is evident that the false parousia is put into operation immediately prior to the actual coming of Christ. And that is what we have in the Watchtower.




What day is drawing near? Not the general “day of Jehovah,” for it is here, having begun in 1914. Rather, it is the special day of Jehovah for his vindication…
Watchtower 7-1-1960



As I have pointed out numerous times, at no time in its existence has the Watchtower ever pointed forward to the coming of Christ and the parousia as a future event. For over half a century the WT hailed 1874 as the beginning of the glorious parousia; that is, up until around 1930 when it unceremoniously flipped it to 1914. And not only that, Bethel taught that the day of Jehovah began in 1914 too, up until around 1970, when that notion was discreetly trashed. But that is the calling card of the man of lawlessness —the false declaration that the presence and day of Jehovah are here. Not coincidently, the Watchtower also proclaims that the resurrection has begun —just like Hymenaeus and Philetus.

Since Paul and his fellow apostles are no longer able to act as a restraint, who is? It must be the ones who will ultimately be distinguished as the faithful and discreet slave. After all, faithful anointed persons living now have the same spirit as did Paul and the apostles.

How will those acting as a restraint be taken out of the way?

For may years there has been a process at work to reduce the influence of anointed men within the Watchtower. Back in the early 90’s all of the business operations of the Society were turned over to a board of directors —none of whom were on the Governing Body or even had to be anointed. And gradually the number of Governing Body members has been steadily reduced through attrition and non-anointed “helpers” have taken on more and more responsibility, which is reflected in the watered-down milk the Watchtower has been serving lately. From all appearances the Watchtower is now run by lawyers and accountants. It is basically a publishing corporation.

With the weakening influence of stalwart men there has been an increasing of lawlessness, which, obviously originates with a man of lawlessness —the evil slave. With the tumult associated with the coming of Christ we may expect the genuine sons to be pushed out completely and the apostasy to come to full bloom. As Jesus said of the faithful, you will be beaten and thrown from the synagogues; at which point the evil one will come to the fore —sitting down in the figurative temple of God proclaiming himself to be a god. He will stand in total opposition to Christ —being the antiChrist who is coming.

Why does God allow Satan to wield a deluding influence and foment apostasy? To serve as a test. God requires us to exercise faith. It is easy to follow the leader —a human leader that is, which, basically is what Jehovah’s Witnesses do. They follow the Watchtower. But when events unfold that will unequivocally prove the Watchtower has misled Jehovah’s Witnesses on the crucial matter of the return of Christ and the establishment of the Kingdom, they will be faced with a choice —either stick with the antiChrist or walk on in faith into the new reality that will present itself then. Each one’s choice will determine their eternal destiny.

 

[Cristo]

Adam was not deceived but she was but because he loved Eve so much he threw in the towel so to speak ,I agree with those point's.

So in essence Adam loved himself more than Jehovah because he chose Eve over Jehovah.

Also in your article it seems to imply Jehovah's at fault because he instilled the qualities of love in the man and woman and I'm not buying that concept perhaps I read it wrong but that's my perception.
But none the less it was a good read .
Thank you for sharing.

Matthew10:
37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.
It doesn't mention wife In this passage but the principal still applies.

Thanks for reading Kevin, I sincerely appreciate your input.

I feel like it goes much deeper than just throwing in the towel. That suggests that he gave up, which I don't believe is true, and here's why. After Eve had sinned, Adam now had a choice to make. Lose his wife who was literally a part of him, or lose his life. Imagine being the first one in all of history to have to make a choice like that, wow. We must take into account the power of this verse and what it says. It is interesting the Jehovah tells us this prior to the sin taking place in the Bible. Is he trying to help us understand why Adam did what he did?

“. . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. . .”Genesis 2:24​

If we consider this moment in history from the perspective that Adam & Eve had already become one flesh, when Eve sinned, half of Adam was already in a sinful state.

Try to empathize with what was going through Adams mind at this moment. No doubt he was contemplating his decision, considering his options.

1. Don't eat the fruit, he still had a chance to say no. In doing so, he would lose his wife, his other half, but he would also not be sticking to his wife by choosing not to sin. Perhaps he was thinking "how do I live with only half of myself," for in reality half of him was now already dead. "How do I stick with my wife, and listen to Jehovah at the same time?"

2. Stick to his wife, eat the fruit, and know that he wouldn't have to live forever without her, or that she wouldn't die alone. He loved her with all her heart. His motive was based on love, but selfishness towards God, and he paid the price for that. Was it Gods fault then that Adam ate the fruit because he was created in the image of God, with love? Of course not.

Having to choose between somebody you love with all your heart, Eve, and between somebody else you love with all your heart, Jehovah, is not a fair choice to have to make in the first place. It wasn't Gods fault Adam had to make that choice, it was ultimately Satans, when he created that choice to be made in the first place. Prior to that choice being created by Satan, Adam & Eve perfectly listened to Jehovahs command to not eat from the tree, nor to even see it as food. It took sin, in the first place, to induce more sin.

As imperfect individuals, and as those who have now seen the horrible consequence of their choices it is easy for us to simply attach judgement to Adam and Eve for the choice they made. But as my article goes to show, the reasons for doing so were not based on hate, or greed, as it was for Satan. We can only speculate on what Adam was thinking before he committed the sin, but he no doubt considered the fact that if he stuck to his wife and they died, which he knew would happen, God would somehow fix what he had done. If so this shows some kind of hope, or faith even, in God fixing what he knew was wrong when Eve committed the sin. Perhaps he thought to himself, "why would God make me choose between the two things I love with all my heart, unless he already has a plan to fix it?"

And you know what, God did!

 

[SusanB]

Thanks for reading Kevin, I sincerely appreciate your input.

I feel like it goes much deeper than just throwing in the towel. That suggests that he gave up, which I don't believe is true, and here's why. After Eve had sinned, Adam now had a choice to make. Lose his wife who was literally a part of him, or lose his life. Imagine being the first one in all of history to have to make a choice like that, wow. We must take into account the power of this verse and what it says. It is interesting the Jehovah tells us this prior to the sin taking place in the Bible. Is he trying to help us understand why Adam did what he did?

“. . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. . .”Genesis 2:24​

If we consider this moment in history from the perspective that Adam & Eve had already become one flesh, when Eve sinned, half of Adam was already in a sinful state.

Try to empathize with what was going through Adams mind at this moment. No doubt he was contemplating his decision, considering his options.

1. Don't eat the fruit, he still had a chance to say no. In doing so, he would lose his wife, his other half, but he would also not be sticking to his wife by choosing not to sin. Perhaps he was thinking "how do I live with only half of myself," for in reality half of him was now already dead. "How do I stick with my wife, and listen to Jehovah at the same time?"

2. Stick to his wife, eat the fruit, and know that he wouldn't have to live forever without her, or that she wouldn't die alone. He loved her with all her heart. His motive was based on love, but selfishness towards God, and he paid the price for that. Was it Gods fault then that Adam ate the fruit because he was created in the image of God, with love? Of course not.

Having to choose between somebody you love with all your heart, Eve, and between somebody else you love with all your heart, Jehovah, is not a fair choice to have to make in the first place. It wasn't Gods fault Adam had to make that choice, it was ultimately Satans, when he created that choice to be made in the first place. Prior to that choice being created by Satan, Adam & Eve perfectly listened to Jehovahs command to not eat from the tree, nor to even see it as food. It took sin, in the first place, to induce more sin.

As imperfect individuals, and as those who have now seen the horrible consequence of their choices it is easy for us to simply attach judgement to Adam and Eve for the choice they made. But as my article goes to show, the reasons for doing so were not based on hate, or greed, as it was for Satan. We can only speculate on what Adam was thinking before he committed the sin, but he no doubt considered the fact that if he stuck to his wife and they died, which he knew would happen, God would somehow fix what he had done. If so this shows some kind of hope, or faith even, in God fixing what he knew was wrong when Eve committed the sin. Perhaps he thought to himself, "why would God make me choose between the two things I love with all my heart, unless he already has a plan to fix it?"

And you know what, God did!

But here’s the thing. Adam and Eve spoke to Jehovah daily in the breezy part of the day. If Adam fully appreciated all that Jehovah had done for him, then he would have and should have communicated with Jehovah about what Eve had done. He didn’t do that. I think we are both speculating a bit, but I am assuming that he presumed on the love of Jehovah that was so evident to him that he acted on his own without regard to Jehovah’s role as lawgiver and judge. That corrupted their relationship and brought the penalty upon Adam because Jehovah is not partial and he does execute judgment when there is clear warning as there was.

 

[Cristo]

But here’s the thing. Adam and Eve spoke to Jehovah daily in the breezy part of the day. If Adam fully appreciated all that Jehovah had done for him, then he would have and should have communicated with Jehovah about what Eve had done. He didn’t do that. I think we are both speculating a bit, but I am assuming that he presumed on the love of Jehovah that was so evident to him that he acted on his own without regard to Jehovah’s role as lawgiver and judge. That corrupted their relationship and brought the penalty upon Adam because Jehovah is not partial and he does execute judgment when there is clear warning as there was.

I agree with everything you say for the most part, except that I do think he gave regard to Jehovahs role as lawgiver and judge, which is why he knew that he would die if he chose to stick to his wife and sin. I was merely pointing out that there is much more to consider regarding why Adam ultimately chose to do what he did, and that he was stuck in a no-win scenario.

Knowing that God loved them, it is quite possible he chose to stick to Eve because he had faith that Jehovah would fix it. Hindsight is always 20/20, so it's easy for us to say 'if this, then that', however we just can't even begin to understand what Adam must have been feeling at that moment when half of him died.

 

[Bk Kevin]

Thanks for reading Kevin, I sincerely appreciate your input.

I feel like it goes much deeper than just throwing in the towel. That suggests that he gave up, which I don't believe is true, and here's why. After Eve had sinned, Adam now had a choice to make. Lose his wife who was literally a part of him, or lose his life. Imagine being the first one in all of history to have to make a choice like that, wow. We must take into account the power of this verse and what it says. It is interesting the Jehovah tells us this prior to the sin taking place in the Bible. Is he trying to help us understand why Adam did what he did?

“. . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. . .”Genesis 2:24​

If we consider this moment in history from the perspective that Adam & Eve had already become one flesh, when Eve sinned, half of Adam was already in a sinful state.

Try to empathize with what was going through Adams mind at this moment. No doubt he was contemplating his decision, considering his options.

1. Don't eat the fruit, he still had a chance to say no. In doing so, he would lose his wife, his other half, but he would also not be sticking to his wife by choosing not to sin. Perhaps he was thinking "how do I live with only half of myself," for in reality half of him was now already dead. "How do I stick with my wife, and listen to Jehovah at the same time?"

2. Stick to his wife, eat the fruit, and know that he wouldn't have to live forever without her, or that she wouldn't die alone. He loved her with all her heart. His motive was based on love, but selfishness towards God, and he paid the price for that. Was it Gods fault then that Adam ate the fruit because he was created in the image of God, with love? Of course not.

Having to choose between somebody you love with all your heart, Eve, and between somebody else you love with all your heart, Jehovah, is not a fair choice to have to make in the first place. It wasn't Gods fault Adam had to make that choice, it was ultimately Satans, when he created that choice to be made in the first place. Prior to that choice being created by Satan, Adam & Eve perfectly listened to Jehovahs command to not eat from the tree, nor to even see it as food. It took sin, in the first place, to induce more sin.

As imperfect individuals, and as those who have now seen the horrible consequence of their choices it is easy for us to simply attach judgement to Adam and Eve for the choice they made. But as my article goes to show, the reasons for doing so were not based on hate, or greed, as it was for Satan. We can only speculate on what Adam was thinking before he committed the sin, but he no doubt considered the fact that if he stuck to his wife and they died, which he knew would happen, God would somehow fix what he had done. If so this shows some kind of hope, or faith even, in God fixing what he knew was wrong when Eve committed the sin. Perhaps he thought to himself, "why would God make me choose between the two things I love with all my heart, unless he already has a plan to fix it?"

And you know what, God did!

Cristo said "Adam now had a choice to make. Lose his wife who was literally a part of him, or lose his life.

Adam did have another Choice he could have presented his situation to Jehovah as to obtain a solution, that in itself shows that Adam had a lack of faith in Jehovah I mean why wasn't Adam not worried about losing his relationship with Jehovah? the answer to that question is obvious but I would enjoy reading your opinion.
Matthew
19:26 Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Next you said " “. . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. . .”Genesis 2:24

If we consider this moment in history from the perspective that Adam & Eve had already become one flesh, when Eve sinned, "half of Adam was already in a sinful state. end quote.

They're becoming one flesh which constitutes a marriage Union doesn't mean half of Adam was already in a sinful state because Eve had sinned. .

Adam only came in to a sinful State when he listened to his wife and ate from the Forbidden tree.
Genesis3:
17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command,+ ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account.+ In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life.+

 

[SusanB]

Cristo said "Adam now had a choice to make. Lose his wife who was literally a part of him, or lose his life.

Adam did have another Choice he could have presented his situation to Jehovah as to obtain a solution, that in itself shows that Adam had a lack of faith in Jehovah I mean why wasn't Adam not worried about losing his relationship with Jehovah? the answer to that question is obvious but I would enjoy reading your opinion.
Matthew
19:26 Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Next you said " “. . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. . .”Genesis 2:24

If we consider this moment in history from the perspective that Adam & Eve had already become one flesh, when Eve sinned, "half of Adam was already in a sinful state. end quote.

They're becoming one flesh which constitutes a marriage Union doesn't mean half of Adam was already in a sinful state because Eve had sinned. End quote.

Adam only came in to a sinful State when he listened to his wife and ate from the Forbidden tree.
Genesis3:
17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command,+ ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account.+ In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life.+

Exactly. I understand Cristo’s comments but I don’t agree with some of his basic statements on which he then builds his theory.

 

[Cristo]

Adam did have another Choice he could have presented his situation to Jehovah as to obtain a solution, that in itself shows that Adam had a lack of faith in Jehovah I mean why wasn't Adam not worried about losing his relationship with Jehovah? the answer to that question is obvious but I would enjoy reading your opinion.

Yes, of course I agree. I also agree that half of Adam was not in a sinful state, as you bring out, it would be best to say half of his marriage arrangement was. I'll explain why I said that later in this post, but thank you for highlighting that.

My argument is not about Adam making a wrong choice, we already know that he did, and we certainly know that presenting his situation to Jehovah is the obvious right choice. It's a given. What I am examining, is the why he didn't make it, and that the perspective of blaming God as the WT teaches is incorrect.

I am trying to understand the situation from a perspective that Adam & Eve were made in the image of God, and that we must try to look at his reason for choosing his wife over Jehovah through the lens of love. Again, I'm not trying to say he didn't make the wrong decision, but rather trying to look at it from his perspective of why he didn't. There is a difference in establishing what he did, with why he did it. My basic statements are that we have been looking at this scenario from the perspective that the WT has narrated to us, and that their theory does not take into account several important factors that are part of the reason Adam chose to do what he did.

It is my theory that his answer to Jehovah, when asked if he had eaten from the tree, does actually present a clearer picture as to why he did what he did. In fact I think it answers both, the what and the why in one short sentence. Of course the what is easy, he ate the fruit. The why on the other hand is not so simple, and that is what I am presenting.

“. . .And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.”” Ge 3:12

It is possible that this one sentence clearly identifies why he did it. I do feel like there is some blame here, more towards Eve than God, however I also feel that Adam is presenting to God what his thoughts were just prior to eating the fruit. When we try to empathize with what he was going through, his perfect thought process was obviously confounded by his perfect physical attachment to the most precious thing in his life, Eve. If only he had gone to Jehovah first is the correct answer, but he didn't, why?

Ultimately, we could end this discussion here, for the obvious reason that he chose to eat the fruit was that he loved Eve more than he loved God. I cannot however believe that he didn't love God, and this also is a reason why we must try to understand why he did what he did.

“. . .But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” Jas 1:14-15​

​

It is clear, by Adams response to Jehovah, that he desired to be with his wife, even though he knew it would cost him his life, he loved her so much that he was willing to die with her.

As I stated earlier, I find it interesting that just prior to the account of the sin in the Garden of Eden, Jehovah provided us with this information:

“24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.” Ge 2:24-25​

Was it the purpose of God to put this verse just prior to Adams choice, to help us in determining why Adam did what he did? That his decision to stick to his wife over Jehovah, was not in itself based on one of hate, but one of love, not for himself, but for her? A decision motivated by his perfect bond of union with his wife?

Again, I'm not trying to justify Adams wrong decision, but merely understand it. Obviously he made the wrong choice and paid the price for it. Can we however, as imperfect individuals, even begin to understand the power that a perfect bond of union had between two perfect individuals? No we cannot.

Consider that on this forum, we have actually tried to comprehend what it will be like in the future if we aren't to wear clothes anymore after we have been made perfect again. Honestly, to me that is beyond crazy to actually even consider people will be walking around naked. This in itself highlights our inability to truly understand the degree of power to which perfection has on our thought process. How then can we truly understand the power of sticking to ones wife, which was within a perfect bond? Certainly the degree to which we cannot comprehend being naked and not being ashamed, we must examine their perfect bond of union as something much greater than we ourselves can understand.

The scriptures again provide us with the same verses found in Genesis regarding sticking to ones wife. When we consider the choice by Adam to sin, and compare it to these words by Paul, it helps

“. . .In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33 Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.” Eph 5:28-33​

​

As a perfect man, how do you now love your wife as yourself if she is now imperfect? They were one flesh. [This was why I stated in the earlier post that once Eve had sinned, half of Adam was already in a sinful state, basing it on the fact that they were one flesh. Just wanted to clarify.]

I suppose in the end, I am hoping to see Adam & Eve again, even though the events that followed are tragic indeed, I think its important that we place the proper weight of culpability of what happened on the right person, that being Satan. Had Satan not sinned, it is most likely that Adam & Eve would have continued to exist just as all the other creation had prior to them for eons of time, perfectly, of that I have no doubt. It was only until sin was introduced into creation that the thought to sin manifested itself within others to the point of actually committing it. Although Adam & Eve made the wrong choice, their choices were not motivated by hate, greed, envy, jealousy, the desire to be worshipped, etc...etc. Whereas those are very reasons Satan did what he did. Adam & Eve paid the price for their decision, just as Satan will, but when we look at this account through a different lens, I believe it does provide some insight regarding Adams decision to stick to his wife.

The Sacred Secret, mentioned in the above verses by Paul, was the solution that God created, so that when sin manifested itself he would already have the means to fix it. Perhaps this is why Paul used that verse just prior to mentioning the sacred secret. Surely Adam & Eve will fall under that arrangement. Gods creation was no longer perfect from the moment Satan lied to Eve, thus the solution to sin, the sacred secret, must cover or fix anything from that point onward. Being that Adam & Eve fell within the arrangement of the sacred secret, then they too will have the potential to benefit from Jesus Christs sacrifice.

 

[The God Pill]

Yes, of course I agree. I also agree that half of Adam was not in a sinful state, as you bring out, it would be best to say half of his marriage arrangement was. I'll explain why I said that later in this post, but thank you for highlighting that.

My argument is not about Adam making a wrong choice, we already know that he did, and we certainly know that presenting his situation to Jehovah is the obvious right choice. It's a given. What I am examining, is the why he didn't make it, and that the perspective of blaming God as the WT teaches is incorrect.

I am trying to understand the situation from a perspective that Adam & Eve were made in the image of God, and that we must try to look at his reason for choosing his wife over Jehovah through the lens of love. Again, I'm not trying to say he didn't make the wrong decision, but rather trying to look at it from his perspective of why he didn't. There is a difference in establishing what he did, with why he did it. My basic statements are that we have been looking at this scenario from the perspective that the WT has narrated to us, and that their theory does not take into account several important factors that are part of the reason Adam chose to do what he did.

It is my theory that his answer to Jehovah, when asked if he had eaten from the tree, does actually present a clearer picture as to why he did what he did. In fact I think it answers both, the what and the why in one short sentence. Of course the what is easy, he ate the fruit. The why on the other hand is not so simple, and that is what I am presenting.

“. . .And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.”” Ge 3:12

It is possible that this one sentence clearly identifies why he did it. I do feel like there is some blame here, more towards Eve than God, however I also feel that Adam is presenting to God what his thoughts were just prior to eating the fruit. When we try to empathize with what he was going through, his perfect thought process was obviously confounded by his perfect physical attachment to the most precious thing in his life, Eve. If only he had gone to Jehovah first is the correct answer, but he didn't, why?

Ultimately, we could end this discussion here, for the obvious reason that he chose to eat the fruit was that he loved Eve more than he loved God. I cannot however believe that he didn't love God, and this also is a reason why we must try to understand why he did what he did.

“. . .But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” Jas 1:14-15​

​

It is clear, by Adams response to Jehovah, that he desired to be with his wife, even though he knew it would cost him his life, he loved her so much that he was willing to die with her.

As I stated earlier, I find it interesting that just prior to the account of the sin in the Garden of Eden, Jehovah provided us with this information:

“24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.” Ge 2:24-25​

Was it the purpose of God to put this verse just prior to Adams choice, to help us in determining why Adam did what he did? That his decision to stick to his wife over Jehovah, was not in itself based on one of hate, but one of love, not for himself, but for her? A decision motivated by his perfect bond of union with his wife?

Again, I'm not trying to justify Adams wrong decision, but merely understand it. Obviously he made the wrong choice and paid the price for it. Can we however, as imperfect individuals, even begin to understand the power that a perfect bond of union had between two perfect individuals? No we cannot.

Consider that on this forum, we have actually tried to comprehend what it will be like in the future if we aren't to wear clothes anymore after we have been made perfect again. Honestly, to me that is beyond crazy to actually even consider people will be walking around naked. This in itself highlights our inability to truly understand the degree of power to which perfection has on our thought process. How then can we truly understand the power of sticking to ones wife, which was within a perfect bond? Certainly the degree to which we cannot comprehend being naked and not being ashamed, we must examine their perfect bond of union as something much greater than we ourselves can understand.

The scriptures again provide us with the same verses found in Genesis regarding sticking to ones wife. When we consider the choice by Adam to sin, and compare it to these words by Paul, it helps

“. . .In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33 Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.” Eph 5:28-33​

​

As a perfect man, how do you now love your wife as yourself if she is now imperfect? They were one flesh. [This was why I stated in the earlier post that once Eve had sinned, half of Adam was already in a sinful state, basing it on the fact that they were one flesh. Just wanted to clarify.]

I suppose in the end, I am hoping to see Adam & Eve again, even though the events that followed are tragic indeed, I think its important that we place the proper weight of culpability of what happened on the right person, that being Satan. Had Satan not sinned, it is most likely that Adam & Eve would have continued to exist just as all the other creation had prior to them for eons of time, perfectly, of that I have no doubt. It was only until sin was introduced into creation that the thought to sin manifested itself within others to the point of actually committing it. Although Adam & Eve made the wrong choice, their choices were not motivated by hate, greed, envy, jealousy, the desire to be worshipped, etc...etc. Whereas those are very reasons Satan did what he did. Adam & Eve paid the price for their decision, just as Satan will, but when we look at this account through a different lens, I believe it does provide some insight regarding Adams decision to stick to his wife.

The Sacred Secret, mentioned in the above verses by Paul, was the solution that God created, so that when sin manifested itself he would already have the means to fix it. Perhaps this is why Paul used that verse just prior to mentioning the sacred secret. Surely Adam & Eve will fall under that arrangement. Gods creation was no longer perfect from the moment Satan lied to Eve, thus the solution to sin, the sacred secret, must cover or fix anything from that point onward. Being that Adam & Eve fell within the arrangement of the sacred secret, then they too will have the potential to benefit from Jesus Christs sacrifice.

I'm inclined to agree partly because the 1st century B.C. books of Adam and Eve (many versions exist in various lands albeit they appear to have possible Christian interpolations) and derivative christian texts like the cave of treasures and the book of the bee have the position that Adam will be redeemed and because in the first few centuries AD I don't know why but they took the topic so seriously that denying the Ransom was applicable to Adam was considered a disfellowshippable offense.

 

[Bk Kevin]

Exactly. I understand Cristo’s comments but I don’t agree with some of his basic statements on which he then builds his theory.

That's the spirit! just make sure of all things...​

1 Thessalonians5: 21 Make sure* of all things;+ hold fast to what is fine.​

Colossians2: ​

8 Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry+ YOU off as his prey through the philosophy+ and empty deception*+ according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary+ things of the world and not according to Christ;​

 

[Bk Kevin]

Yes, of course I agree. I also agree that half of Adam was not in a sinful state, as you bring out, it would be best to say half of his marriage arrangement was. I'll explain why I said that later in this post, but thank you for highlighting that.

My argument is not about Adam making a wrong choice, we already know that he did, and we certainly know that presenting his situation to Jehovah is the obvious right choice. It's a given. What I am examining, is the why he didn't make it, and that the perspective of blaming God as the WT teaches is incorrect.

I am trying to understand the situation from a perspective that Adam & Eve were made in the image of God, and that we must try to look at his reason for choosing his wife over Jehovah through the lens of love. Again, I'm not trying to say he didn't make the wrong decision, but rather trying to look at it from his perspective of why he didn't. There is a difference in establishing what he did, with why he did it. My basic statements are that we have been looking at this scenario from the perspective that the WT has narrated to us, and that their theory does not take into account several important factors that are part of the reason Adam chose to do what he did.

It is my theory that his answer to Jehovah, when asked if he had eaten from the tree, does actually present a clearer picture as to why he did what he did. In fact I think it answers both, the what and the why in one short sentence. Of course the what is easy, he ate the fruit. The why on the other hand is not so simple, and that is what I am presenting.

“. . .And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.”” Ge 3:12

It is possible that this one sentence clearly identifies why he did it. I do feel like there is some blame here, more towards Eve than God, however I also feel that Adam is presenting to God what his thoughts were just prior to eating the fruit. When we try to empathize with what he was going through, his perfect thought process was obviously confounded by his perfect physical attachment to the most precious thing in his life, Eve. If only he had gone to Jehovah first is the correct answer, but he didn't, why?

Ultimately, we could end this discussion here, for the obvious reason that he chose to eat the fruit was that he loved Eve more than he loved God. I cannot however believe that he didn't love God, and this also is a reason why we must try to understand why he did what he did.

“. . .But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” Jas 1:14-15​

​

It is clear, by Adams response to Jehovah, that he desired to be with his wife, even though he knew it would cost him his life, he loved her so much that he was willing to die with her.

As I stated earlier, I find it interesting that just prior to the account of the sin in the Garden of Eden, Jehovah provided us with this information:

“24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.” Ge 2:24-25​

Was it the purpose of God to put this verse just prior to Adams choice, to help us in determining why Adam did what he did? That his decision to stick to his wife over Jehovah, was not in itself based on one of hate, but one of love, not for himself, but for her? A decision motivated by his perfect bond of union with his wife?

Again, I'm not trying to justify Adams wrong decision, but merely understand it. Obviously he made the wrong choice and paid the price for it. Can we however, as imperfect individuals, even begin to understand the power that a perfect bond of union had between two perfect individuals? No we cannot.

Consider that on this forum, we have actually tried to comprehend what it will be like in the future if we aren't to wear clothes anymore after we have been made perfect again. Honestly, to me that is beyond crazy to actually even consider people will be walking around naked. This in itself highlights our inability to truly understand the degree of power to which perfection has on our thought process. How then can we truly understand the power of sticking to ones wife, which was within a perfect bond? Certainly the degree to which we cannot comprehend being naked and not being ashamed, we must examine their perfect bond of union as something much greater than we ourselves can understand.

The scriptures again provide us with the same verses found in Genesis regarding sticking to ones wife. When we consider the choice by Adam to sin, and compare it to these words by Paul, it helps

“. . .In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33 Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.” Eph 5:28-33​

​

As a perfect man, how do you now love your wife as yourself if she is now imperfect? They were one flesh. [This was why I stated in the earlier post that once Eve had sinned, half of Adam was already in a sinful state, basing it on the fact that they were one flesh. Just wanted to clarify.]

I suppose in the end, I am hoping to see Adam & Eve again, even though the events that followed are tragic indeed, I think its important that we place the proper weight of culpability of what happened on the right person, that being Satan. Had Satan not sinned, it is most likely that Adam & Eve would have continued to exist just as all the other creation had prior to them for eons of time, perfectly, of that I have no doubt. It was only until sin was introduced into creation that the thought to sin manifested itself within others to the point of actually committing it. Although Adam & Eve made the wrong choice, their choices were not motivated by hate, greed, envy, jealousy, the desire to be worshipped, etc...etc. Whereas those are very reasons Satan did what he did. Adam & Eve paid the price for their decision, just as Satan will, but when we look at this account through a different lens, I believe it does provide some insight regarding Adams decision to stick to his wife.

The Sacred Secret, mentioned in the above verses by Paul, was the solution that God created, so that when sin manifested itself he would already have the means to fix it. Perhaps this is why Paul used that verse just prior to mentioning the sacred secret. Surely Adam & Eve will fall under that arrangement. Gods creation was no longer perfect from the moment Satan lied to Eve, thus the solution to sin, the sacred secret, must cover or fix anything from that point onward. Being that Adam & Eve fell within the arrangement of the sacred secret, then they too will have the potential to benefit from Jesus Christs sacrifice.

Cristo said "I find it interesting that just prior to the account of the sin in the Garden of Eden, Jehovah provided us with this information: Was it the purpose of God to put this verse just prior to Adams choice,
End quote.

Bible quote in question:“24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.” Ge 2:24-25

My question is "What is the purpose of this scripture and who is it applicable to or directed at.
well it was directed at Adam and Eve for the further instructions for the next generation and their children's children.

So how did I come to this conclusion well the first half of the verse said "That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife.

The biblical fact is Adam and Eve had no physical father or mother so it can't be referring to them so it must be their children who do have a physical father and mother.
Now the second half of verse 24 is the most confusing part for most people to understand.

Second half of verse 24 said "and they must become one flesh, simply means that Adam and Eve were to copulate as well as other Generations as to become one flesh / have children.
Genesis1:27
And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him;+ male and female he created them.+ 28 Further, God blessed+ them and God said to them: “Be fruitful+ and become many and fill the earth and subdue+ it, and have in subjection+ the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving* upon the earth.”

 

[Cristo]

Cristo said "I find it interesting that just prior to the account of the sin in the Garden of Eden, Jehovah provided us with this information: Was it the purpose of God to put this verse just prior to Adams choice,
End quote.

Bible quote in question:“24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.” Ge 2:24-25

My question is "What is the purpose of this scripture and who is it applicable to or directed at.
well it was directed at Adam and Eve for the further instructions for the next generation and their children's children.

So how did I come to this conclusion well the first half of the verse said "That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife.

The biblical fact is Adam and Eve had no physical father or mother so it can't be referring to them so it must be their children who do have a physical father and mother.
Now the second half of verse 24 is the most confusing part for most people to understand.

Second half of verse 24 said "and they must become one flesh, simply means that Adam and Eve were to copulate as well as other Generations as to become one flesh / have children.
Genesis1:27
And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him;+ male and female he created them.+ 28 Further, God blessed+ them and God said to them: “Be fruitful+ and become many and fill the earth and subdue+ it, and have in subjection+ the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving* upon the earth.”

Strong reasoning Kevin, I appreciate the thought you put into that. Does this mean then that we cannot conclude that Jehovah put that verse there, just prior to the sin account, to help us understand what may have influenced Adam to stick to his wife, and not Jehovah? I don't know, I suppose we have no way of actually knowing, but I will try to consider why Adam made his choice to sin without that verse in mind, in order to try and identify whether it has any bearing. Again great thought process you applied there to that scripture.

Please understand, I am merely trying to find what influenced Adam to make his choice. I cannot accept that he nor Eve, didn't love Jehovah. Since the very beginning of creation, all of Jehovahs creations loved him, for who knows how many eons and eons of time the angels have existed, they have lived according to their perfect design. Adam & Eve were designed, and created in that same perfect image. I find it difficult to understand why these two would go contrary to their perfect design, when we compare the track record of Jehovahs creation up UNTIL the first sin, it was 100% good. The only difference between the eons of time that the angels performed flawlessly, and the time when Adam & Eve were created was that sin manifested itself when Satan lied to Eve. This, most certainly demonstrates the power of sin, and the influence it has on an individual, regardless of whether one has committed it yet or not.

In trying to understand what influenced their decisions, we must consider what they had to gain. For every decision made by a human being is influenced by something that we want, something we perceive as a benefit to us in some. Eve didn't want more, UNTIL, Satan lied to her. Therefore Eve's culpability in the sin is diminished by the fact that she was clearly deceived by Satan. Being created half physical, half spiritual, she succumbed to the physical desire of what she saw as food. Food that would make her to be like God. So it was not only a temptation formulated by Satan to appeal to her physical self(she saw it as food), but also her spiritual as well(to be like God). It was the perfect temptation in that it enticed both sides of her perfect nature in some way to want more than what Gods purpose defined as enough.

There was no influence directly from Satan to Adam, he was manipulated entirely by his wife who had now succumbed to sin. The lies which Satan told Eve, had no bearing on Adams decision because he was NOT deceived. He knew Eve was going to die now, and from that moment on we must consider what influenced his decision to eat from the tree, instead of turning to Jehovah. What benefit did he have to eat from the tree? There is only one.

The only benefit that Adam had by eating from the tree was that he would not have to live without his wife. He knew that he wouldn't be like God, he wasn't deceived. He knew that he would die, he wasn't deceived. He didn't think there was anything more he would be getting, by eating from the tree. His motives were not greed, or hatred, or jealousy, but simply based on the perfect love that he had with the woman who was supposed to 'be with him' as he told Jehovah in his answer as to what happened. If you, or anybody, can come up with anything other than that which may have influenced his decision, I would certainly welcome it.

It wasn't until yesterday that I realized why Adam & Eve will most certainly have the opportunity to be resurrected when I read the verse in Ephesians, regarding the way a man should treat his wife, just as Jesus Christ treats his congregation, and how great this 'sacred secret' is. As stated, the sacred secret was the solution to the sin Satan manifested within creation.

Therefore anybody who has paid their penalty for sin in death, can potentially benefit from the provision of the sacred secret if God deems it so, for Jesus Christ offered up his life in exchange for ALL who have sinned.
I feel that this is proof in itself of why we need to look at the account of Adam & Eve, not from a place of blame upon them, but rather from the perspective of love, because they too were victims of Satans hatred against God.

“. . .In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33 Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.” Eph 5:28-33

P.S. Because of your strong reasoning @Bk Kevin, I said I would not use the verse from Genesis to my theory/consideration of what may have influenced Adam to sin, and I didn't. I do completely agree with your breakdown of the verse and what it means, however I feel that it's use here in Ephesians constitutes something more, which is why Paul chose to use it, in his comparison of it, with the 'sacred secret'.

 

[Bk Kevin]

Strong reasoning Kevin, I appreciate the thought you put into that. Does this mean then that we cannot conclude that Jehovah put that verse there, just prior to the sin account, to help us understand what may have influenced Adam to stick to his wife, and not Jehovah? I don't know, I suppose we have no way of actually knowing, but I will try to consider why Adam made his choice to sin without that verse in mind, in order to try and identify whether it has any bearing. Again great thought process you applied there to that scripture.

Please understand, I am merely trying to find what influenced Adam to make his choice. I cannot accept that he nor Eve, didn't love Jehovah. Since the very beginning of creation, all of Jehovahs creations loved him, for who knows how many eons and eons of time the angels have existed, they have lived according to their perfect design. Adam & Eve were designed, and created in that same perfect image. I find it difficult to understand why these two would go contrary to their perfect design, when we compare the track record of Jehovahs creation up UNTIL the first sin, it was 100% good. The only difference between the eons of time that the angels performed flawlessly, and the time when Adam & Eve were created was that sin manifested itself when Satan lied to Eve. This, most certainly demonstrates the power of sin, and the influence it has on an individual, regardless of whether one has committed it yet or not.

In trying to understand what influenced their decisions, we must consider what they had to gain. For every decision made by a human being is influenced by something that we want, something we perceive as a benefit to us in some. Eve didn't want more, UNTIL, Satan lied to her. Therefore Eve's culpability in the sin is diminished by the fact that she was clearly deceived by Satan. Being created half physical, half spiritual, she succumbed to the physical desire of what she saw as food. Food that would make her to be like God. So it was not only a temptation formulated by Satan to appeal to her physical self(she saw it as food), but also her spiritual as well(to be like God). It was the perfect temptation in that it enticed both sides of her perfect nature in some way to want more than what Gods purpose defined as enough.

There was no influence directly from Satan to Adam, he was manipulated entirely by his wife who had now succumbed to sin. The lies which Satan told Eve, had no bearing on Adams decision because he was NOT deceived. He knew Eve was going to die now, and from that moment on we must consider what influenced his decision to eat from the tree, instead of turning to Jehovah. What benefit did he have to eat from the tree? There is only one.

The only benefit that Adam had by eating from the tree was that he would not have to live without his wife. He knew that he wouldn't be like God, he wasn't deceived. He knew that he would die, he wasn't deceived. He didn't think there was anything more he would be getting, by eating from the tree. His motives were not greed, or hatred, or jealousy, but simply based on the perfect love that he had with the woman who was supposed to 'be with him' as he told Jehovah in his answer as to what happened. If you, or anybody, can come up with anything other than that which may have influenced his decision, I would certainly welcome it.

It wasn't until yesterday that I realized why Adam & Eve will most certainly have the opportunity to be resurrected when I read the verse in Ephesians, regarding the way a man should treat his wife, just as Jesus Christ treats his congregation, and how great this 'sacred secret' is. As stated, the sacred secret was the solution to the sin Satan manifested within creation.

Therefore anybody who has paid their penalty for sin in death, can potentially benefit from the provision of the sacred secret if God deems it so, for Jesus Christ offered up his life in exchange for ALL who have sinned.
I feel that this is proof in itself of why we need to look at the account of Adam & Eve, not from a place of blame upon them, but rather from the perspective of love, because they too were victims of Satans hatred against God.

“. . .In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33 Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.” Eph 5:28-33

P.S. Because of your strong reasoning @Bk Kevin, I said I would not use the verse from Genesis to my theory/consideration of what may have influenced Adam to sin, and I didn't. I do completely agree with your breakdown of the verse and what it means, however I feel that it's use here in Ephesians constitutes something more, which is why Paul chose to use it, in his comparison of it, with the 'sacred secret'.

I don't see how these scriptures in Ephesians support your idea that Adam and Eve will be Resurrected. The sacred secret that Paul is alluding to has to do with the marriage of the lamb and his wife.
Revelation 19:
7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed, and let us give him the glory,+ because the marriage+ of the Lamb has arrived+ and his wife has prepared herself.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/revelation/19/#v66019007

 

[Cathii]

Its amazing, Christo, that Paul had to instruct men in that congregation to love their wives. It should have been a given. But here Paul is counseling and obviously because he had to, the problem existed. It still exists today. In fact there are no "perfect Marriages" Adam and Eve would have been the example for us to follow. Adam never offered an apology in any form, instead he blamed Jehovah saying that "the wife YOu gave me".Jehovah is a God of perfect justice. All the angels in heaven and all creation look to Jehovah to carry out justice. That being said, will Adam and Eve be resurrected?I could copy and paste half the Bible on this point, don't think it's necessary. The last Adam is Jesus Christ as our father who gives us life now, Adam is no longer in the play as our father. If Jehovah is truly in the marriage arrangement as the head of the man, there would be no secrets. Those scriptures apply to the anointed.

 

[The God Pill]

Paul not even asking women to love their husband's tells all he neither expected it nor considered it an obligation only encouraged older women to teach the younger ones how to as if it didn't come that naturally. On women respecting their husband's it's a bit sugarcoaty a more direct rendering is reverential fear as towards a monarch. Which makes sense because the three levels of submission to god are 1. fear as a slave fearing punishment 2. Self interest as a servant seeking reward, 3. Love as a child loves one's father. God would rather be obeyed out of love than served out of self interest and rather out of self interest than obeyed merely out of fear but as long as any of these motives are sufficient for obedience he can work with his creations and things can always improve. Paul's words show his awareness that love flows more readily down the hierarchy than up the strong extend love and the dependant can either reciprocate or not as the saying goes God loves man, man loves woman, woman loves children, children love puppies as theirin lies Adam's idolatry in loving Eve more than Jehovah.

 

[Cathii]

Br. Pill, perfect love throws fear outside..1 John 4:18. We should not have to fear God other than fear of displeasing Him..Fear of Punishment would be outside the realm of love of Jehovah, we love because He first loved us...Self interest? we are here to give God glory..our very existance gives God glory..Yes, love does come from God and flows down in a perfect circumstance -the kingdom...
Please , Jehovah, bring the Kingdom.....