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Cristo

Well-known member
I am even less qualified, so, i won't get involved in the big boys' conversation anymore ;)
But thank you for your answer.
If you have faith in Jehovah, through Jesus Christ, you are more than adequately qualified evw. Gods spirit is directed towards those with sincere and open hearts. You are always welcome to join the discussion.
When reading and rereading this argument, one text always comes to mind: Matt. 10:37, 38. I could be completely wrong with the application, so forgive me in advance. But when Jesus says: Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. against imperfect humans, how much more so would it apply to Adam who was perfectly and been taught by Jehovah Hiself and then considers his wife worth more than Jehovah? Could that be a basis for a resurrection???
Great scripture, and certainly valid in this discussion. It is hard to justify any sort of resurrection to Adam when we compare his actions of showing greater affection for his wife than Jehovah. Only because I have taken the role of advocate for him, Adam that is, is why I look for opportunity to find potential reasons for a resurrection, but that doesn't mean that I must deny the possibility that he won't. I don't deny Adam may not get resurrected. I hope he does, but if not then it was Gods will, and I'm ok with that.

As I have repeatedly stated in this thread, my goal was really two fold in not only seeking to find a reason for the potential of a resurrection, but more so, in trying to discover WHY he did what he did. We already KNOW what he did, and it always seems to come back to the what, but I feel it is just as important, if not more so, to truly understand the why, the motive for doing such a thing in the first place. Perhaps we will never truly know, but that is what this is about, me trying to understand his thinking at the moments just prior to the sin. As Barnaby says, i'm more or less played out on this as well, and if I can sum up all that i have come to discover throughout all this it would be this.

The bible makes this comparison, “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” 1Co 15:45. Thus, Adam in these scriptures represents a perfect man. It can be said then that prior to the sin, Adam was equal to Jesus Christ as far as perfection goes. Just as Barnaby alluded to they were created with a standard of perfection. Using this knowledge from the scriptures, we can then say there was nothing that the devil could have offered Adam to tempt him, because he was already perfect, he was already complete within himself, and he would have seen through the lies that Satan was peddling.

The scriptures state “. . .Adam was not deceived,. . .” (1Ti 2:14), therefore the two lies that Satan deceived Eve with had no influence over Adams decision. This means that Adams motive for sinning could not be based on what Satan had offered them. If Adam did believe he wouldn't die, or did believe he would be like God, then that would mean he had also been deceived, but the scriptures state that he wasn't, thus his motive, his reason for sin, must be found elsewhere.

Satan knew that by getting Eve to sin first, Adams motivation for sin would be through her if he would sin at all. Obviously Adam didn't want to be without his wife, for even though he had the perfect capacity to say no, he chose death to be with his wife. There can be thus only one reason why he sinned, his motive, was he didn't want to live without Eve. His love for his other half, at that moment, was greater than his love for Jehovah. I suppose then that Eve, in this sense, became the fruit on the tree for Adam.

I do not know if the statement "must stick to his wife" had any bearing on that decision, and I have wondered if that could be considered a commandment, for the word 'must' is strongly suggestive of it. If that were true, it still doesn't negate the fact that Adam still had to have the perfect capacity to listen to Jehovah, and not eat from the tree, for even though he 'must' stick to his wife, his loyalty to Jehovah would always need to come first.

Do I think Adam was blaming God for what happened? He could have been, but i am also willing to consider the other perspective, in which he inflected the words 'to be with me' instead of 'you'. I think the feelings he felt towards Eve, the woman who was supposed to be with him, reflected in his statement to God for what had just happened. The fact that he had just given up his life to be with her illustrates this to be possible. I don't hear any accountability in Adams words when he said "the woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate", it almost sounds as though he is blaming Eve, not God, perhaps he just realized what a tremendous mistake he had just made and was trying to justify it somehow.

Honestly, in the end, i don't know if I'm any closer to to understanding, I suppose I should have just listened to the advice to keep searching for what we know is true. Next time I'll do my best to pay heed a bit more...Anyways thanks again for all who participated.
 
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Jonah

Well-known member
If a perfect person sins, is it not a willful choice? Is there an unforgivable sin mentioned in the Bible? Yes, if an imperfect chosen one practices sin after knowing the truth, there is no sacrifice for sins left. How is Adam's situation different from Satan and the demons who also were perfect and willfully chose to sin? If there are imperfect humans who have sinned against the holy spirit and are already consigned to gehenna, how is the perfect human whose selfish, willfull choice resulted in all the pain, suffering and death of humanity off the hook? Sorry, this idea that Adam will be resurrected doesn't make sense.
 
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Cristo

Well-known member
If a perfect person sins, is it not a willful choice? Is there an unforgivable sin mentioned in the Bible? Yes, if an imperfect chosen one practices sin after knowing the truth, there is no sacrifice for sins left. How is Adam's situation different from Satan and the demons who also were perfect and willfully chose to sin? If there are imperfect humans who have sinned against the holy spirit and are already consigned to gehenna, how is the perfect human whose selfish, willfull choice resulted in all the pain, suffering and death of humanity off the hook? Sorry, this idea that Adam will be resurrected doesn't make sense.
Hi Johan. You could be absolutely right. However it does not mean that every bad choice mankind has made is his fault. Should we blame Adam for all the bad choices made after the sin? Was it Adams fault Cain killed Abel, even after Jehovah warned him that sin was crouching at the door, or did Cain choose to sin of his own free will? Just because we are born into sin, does not mean that we can blame Adam for our poor choices when we have just as much free will to choose as he did. If you want to be upset, or even furious with Adam because we have to die, yes, I can agree with you, but Adam is not the source of sin, Satan is. He bears full culpability in that had he not lied to Eve, Adam & Eve would not have sinned in the first place. Their sins were a consequence of sin manifesting through Satan. It took sin to get them to sin. There is much more at stake here than just resurrection, there is the establishing of a legal precedent so that creation will never have to go through this again, but that is a topic for another day.

I have tried to look at the account without any bias, without any blame attached to it, simply trying to see if we could get closer to understanding why the worst decision in human history was made by the very first two perfect human beings. Eves is simple, she was straight out deceived. Adams decision, based in selfishness, does not fit the standard of what perfection is which is why it is so difficult to comprehend why he did it. The only difference I can see between Adams sin and the demons who also chose to sin, was that the demons did so with the intent to gain something other than what they already had, even though they were already completely perfect in every way, they lacked nothing. Adams choice seems to be that he was simply trying to get back what had been taken from him, his wife, and in doing so he gave up his life.

Why would a perfect creature choose to die, with nothing to gain by choosing it? That doesn't make sense to me, and thats what I am pursuing the answer to.
 

DavidCJ

Well-known member
Why would a perfect creature choose to die, with nothing to gain by choosing it? That doesn't make sense to me, and thats what I am pursuing the answer to.
Very off topics but also very interesting line of conversations.

Maybe faith still comes into play. "Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness".

Perfect does not mean they know everything or have infinite powers. They are still limited in scope. But a glimmer of what it might be could be seen by the way we are as imperfect humans.

We have our leanings.
-Towards aggression
-Towards pride and ego
-Towards love of material things
-Towards sexual sins
-Towards alcoholism

I would say that while I know friends and people that are leaning towards anger, that's not me. However I can be incited to anger too. So even if anger is not my weakness, I still can do it. For a perfect man, he has no leanings towards any sin we see today. He has perfect balance towards all things that every single of us imperfect humans struggle to keep under control.

The bible is accepting of having alcohol but people who have issues with alcoholism have to stop altogether because that is their weakness. When it comes to cigarettes a small portion of youngsters that take them because of peer pressure never do it again because despite the addictive nature of nicotine, they absolutely hate the taste. Yet for lot of others they get hooked with the first cigarette. I am pretty sure if those people that hate it continue on doing it the nicotine will eventually take over and they will become addicts. But it wouldn't have been their weakness from the beginning.

It's like reading about someone that grew up with no family history of psychological illnesses, grew up in a loving home, and zero history of previous crimes until one moment out of the blue decided to "sin". Likely he still got enticed by others and had no appreciation of the good he had, just like Adam. Being "free" is limited in scope just as being "perfect" is limited in scope. The only real being fully free and perfect is Jehovah.

Jesus still had to choose Jehovah. He still had to pray fervently for support. We don't know exactly what went through Adam's mind before he took the fruit but another verse also basically says if you keep dwelling on it, you eventually want to do it and that verse specifically refers to that want turning into action, thus sin. Maybe he contemplated on taking of the fruit way before Eve did, so the "seed of sin" was planted.

I can't see any way Adam(and Eve) being resurrected at all. Their story is written partly as a warning to us. He was completely aware of what he was doing and he still did it. Look at Abraham for example. He was asked to sacrifice his son, yet went ahead without question. Maybe he did have worries and even doubts but his faith was stronger. Adam had everything good and nothing lacking, yet rebelled like a kid from a good home that decided to run away and do all sorts of bad things.
 
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evw

Well-known member
it almost sounds as though he is blaming Eve, not God, perhaps he just realized what a tremendous mistake he had just made and was trying to justify it somehow
Thank you Cristo for this thread. I think you're right on this last thought. I jokingly call that 'the Adam syndrome' lol
 

Cristo

Well-known member
Ha yes the whole “it wasn’t me”. I guarantee we have ALL used that one before.

Just to be clear the whole reason for this post was because somebody else started it…it really is their fault. Lol
 
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Cristo

Well-known member
Thank you Cristo for this thread. I think you're right on this last thought. I jokingly call that 'the Adam syndrome' lol
Ha yes the whole “it wasn’t me”. I guarantee we have ALL used that one before.

Just to be clear the whole reason for this thread was because somebody else started it…it really is their fault. Lol
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I am even less qualified, so, i won't get involved in the big boys' conversation anymore ;)
But thank you for your answer.
I am no ”big boy”. I have little academic grasp of scripture. Certainly I understand the basic scriptures as taught by Jesus, but I neither pretend or make pretence at matching that of a sage and I prefer not to be imbued with qualities I neither have or aspire to. Creation is the master of instruction for those that cannot delve into the higher echelons of prophesy and meaning - creation and the simple message. That is the only ground I would presume to lay claim to. If there is one scripture that reflects our general position in understanding, it is the words of Jesus to Thomas. “You have seen and believe. Greater still are those that have not seen, yet believe.” That is our test is it not? That in itself is no special honour, but at a guess, a remark by Jesus on the somewhat blatant, in-our-face comment on the evidence of Jehovah that there is to be seen in our very being, and in the glory of remnants left to us of creation. Take for example, the giant sequoia tree that can draw up water and nutrient 300 feet and more through tubes the thickness of a hair - compare that with the machinery required for us to propel water the same distance, or even for our heart to pump blood in a circle of just 6 feet. What of a leaf that turns sunlight into sugars via a cell no bigger than the tip of a needle - a process that could we mimic it, could feed the world for free! There are no big boys here EVW; we are all in the same boat and your praise and thinking and understanding are of the same value as the next person here in the life boat, if not more, for you have, like the rest of us, have “not seen, but believe.“ That is the greatest of credit before Jehovah. So hang on to that thought, and think nothing more of those that argue whether the sun will come up tomorrow. It is spurious, though elegant to argue. It is our purpose, though we die and are forgotten and through out the ages, one can can count on one hand, those that have left behind learning of value. If you want a quality that is of value, then offer love to Jehovah. It is folly to think we can argue successfully His attributes of hand or mind. We should hear more from you, not less, if not for the very reason that you appear to grasp the very issue of what is of value to Jehovah. That is rare indeed - real “big girls stuff”.
 

evw

Well-known member
I am no ”big boy”. I have little academic grasp of scripture. Certainly I understand the basic scriptures as taught by Jesus, but I neither pretend or make pretence at matching that of a sage and I prefer not to be imbued with qualities I neither have or aspire to. Creation is the master of instruction for those that cannot delve into the higher echelons of prophesy and meaning - creation and the simple message. That is the only ground I would presume to lay claim to. If there is one scripture that reflects our general position in understanding, it is the words of Jesus to Thomas. “You have seen and believe. Greater still are those that have not seen, yet believe.” That is our test is it not? That in itself is no special honour, but at a guess, a remark by Jesus on the somewhat blatant, in-our-face comment on the evidence of Jehovah that there is to be seen in our very being, and in the glory of remnants left to us of creation. Take for example, the giant sequoia tree that can draw up water and nutrient 300 feet and more through tubes the thickness of a hair - compare that with the machinery required for us to propel water the same distance, or even for our heart to pump blood in a circle of just 6 feet. What of a leaf that turns sunlight into sugars via a cell no bigger than the tip of a needle - a process that could we mimic it, could feed the world for free! There are no big boys here EVW; we are all in the same boat and your praise and thinking and understanding are of the same value as the next person here in the life boat, if not more, for you have, like the rest of us, have “not seen, but believe.“ That is the greatest of credit before Jehovah. So hang on to that thought, and think nothing more of those that argue whether the sun will come up tomorrow. It is spurious, though elegant to argue. It is our purpose, though we die and are forgotten and through out the ages, one can can count on one hand, those that have left behind learning of value. If you want a quality that is of value, then offer love to Jehovah. It is folly to think we can argue successfully His attributes of hand or mind. We should hear more from you, not less, if not for the very reason that you appear to grasp the very issue of what is of value to Jehovah. That is rare indeed - real “big girls stuff”.
I'm terrible sorry Barnaby if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention.1684136171413.pngI use that saying when I'm unable to get my thoughts correctly across, even in Dutch. So please forgive me, 1684136276566.png I do value your comments dearly and appriciate your compliment, thank you for that 1684136212284.png
 

Cristo

Well-known member
I'm terrible sorry Barnaby if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention.View attachment 3911I use that saying when I'm unable to get my thoughts correctly across, even in Dutch. So please forgive me, View attachment 3913 I do value your comments dearly and appriciate your compliment, thank you for that View attachment 3912
I'm terrible sorry Barnaby if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention.View attachment 3911I use that saying when I'm unable to get my thoughts correctly across, even in Dutch. So please forgive me, View attachment 3913 I do value your comments dearly and appriciate your compliment, thank you for that View attachment 3912
Huh? What saying do you mean? I’m certain barnaby was not offended.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
I am no ”big boy”. I have little academic grasp of scripture. Certainly I understand the basic scriptures as taught by Jesus, but I neither pretend or make pretence at matching that of a sage and I prefer not to be imbued with qualities I neither have or aspire to. Creation is the master of instruction for those that cannot delve into the higher echelons of prophesy and meaning - creation and the simple message. That is the only ground I would presume to lay claim to. If there is one scripture that reflects our general position in understanding, it is the words of Jesus to Thomas. “You have seen and believe. Greater still are those that have not seen, yet believe.” That is our test is it not? That in itself is no special honour, but at a guess, a remark by Jesus on the somewhat blatant, in-our-face comment on the evidence of Jehovah that there is to be seen in our very being, and in the glory of remnants left to us of creation. Take for example, the giant sequoia tree that can draw up water and nutrient 300 feet and more through tubes the thickness of a hair - compare that with the machinery required for us to propel water the same distance, or even for our heart to pump blood in a circle of just 6 feet. What of a leaf that turns sunlight into sugars via a cell no bigger than the tip of a needle - a process that could we mimic it, could feed the world for free! There are no big boys here EVW; we are all in the same boat and your praise and thinking and understanding are of the same value as the next person here in the life boat, if not more, for you have, like the rest of us, have “not seen, but believe.“ That is the greatest of credit before Jehovah. So hang on to that thought, and think nothing more of those that argue whether the sun will come up tomorrow. It is spurious, though elegant to argue. It is our purpose, though we die and are forgotten and through out the ages, one can can count on one hand, those that have left behind learning of value. If you want a quality that is of value, then offer love to Jehovah. It is folly to think we can argue successfully His attributes of hand or mind. We should hear more from you, not less, if not for the very reason that you appear to grasp the very issue of what is of value to Jehovah. That is rare indeed - real “big girls stuff”.

Isaiah40:​

28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard?+ Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities* of the earth, is a God to time indefinite.+ He does not tire out or grow weary.+ There is no searching out of his understanding.+ 29 He is giving to the tired one power;+ and to the one without dynamic energy+ he makes full might abound. 30 Boys will both tire out and grow weary, and young men themselves will without fail stumble, 31 but those who are hoping+ in Jehovah will regain power.+ They will mount up with wings like eagles.+ They will run and not grow weary; they will walk and not tire out.”+

Romans11:​

33 O the depth of God’s riches+ and wisdom+ and knowledge!+ How unsearchable his judgments+ [are] and past tracing out his ways [are]! 34 For “who has come to know Jehovah’s* mind,+ or who has become his counselor?”+ 35 Or, “Who has first given to him, so that it must be repaid to him?”+ 36 Because from him and by him and for him are all things.+ To him be the glory forever.+ Amen.​

 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
I am even less qualified, so, i won't get involved in the big boys' conversation anymore ;)
But thank you for your answer.

The man who fears Jehovah is qualified...​

Acts10:​

34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial,+ 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

Job 34:19

19 [There is One] who has not shown partiality to princes And has not given more consideration to the noblea one than to the lowly one,For all of them are the work of his hands.b
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I'm terrible sorry Barnaby if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention.View attachment 3911I use that saying when I'm unable to get my thoughts correctly across, even in Dutch. So please forgive me, View attachment 3913 I do value your comments dearly and appriciate your compliment, thank you for that View attachment 3912
There is no offence EVW, in the least, or even crossed my mind. I was concerned for you by what you said in thinking that you may be ”less than“ others. There is so much inequality in this world not least for women, the disabled and sections of society. The two scriptures that BKevin quoted in his reply above are exactly the issue to hand in that none of us can claim any insight of any consequence into the workings of Jehovah. If we are diligent, our salvation is to be found in our love of righteousness and all the tangents that rest upon that. Until clarity is given us, we should be prepared to tolerate - even welcome, and politely consider as much as we can, the opinion of others as they do so for us. That and an appreciation of the Holy Spirit and its values are what keeps the doors of communication and healthy argument open and the trolls on the run. In the interim between now and the end of this system, we should place our faith in Jehovah and celebrate His love for us by grasping it with both hands, one to one, and not allow ourselves to feel “less than“ certain that somehow, we are of less value than our peers, or the sparrow that falls to earth - for that is counted by Jehovah too and noted for its contribution. As I said, you perhaps should join in with your contributions as they are important and add to the flow of spiritual insight. Even then, our only value is if we can share the essence of the Spirit, for of our own thinking, there is little that can enlighten others. The spirit speaks that way, even through donkeys that turn to their master and ask why they are being beaten by them, when there is clearly something hindering its progress that they should see? Being a donkey is a good job to have - not only does one get enlightened as to the road ahead, but also get to have the master sitting on their back showing them the way into the holy city? Donkey-type humility is a strength if genuinely seeking of its oft painful practice in exchange for the long term value of acquiring a place amongst equally humble people. It’s not a weakness, but can be if not fully understood. We all choose to sit on the lowest table, in acknowledgment that it is our rightful place. We sit with each other. So you/we/me are of equal value.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
I'm terrible sorry Barnaby if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention.View attachment 3911I use that saying when I'm unable to get my thoughts correctly across, even in Dutch. So please forgive me, View attachment 3913 I do value your comments dearly and appriciate your compliment, thank you for that View attachment 3912
I doubt very much you offended Barnaby but be very careful what you say about his dog!. Every offense against Barnaby will be forgiven but not his dog...Lol...
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
I'm terrible sorry Barnaby if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention.View attachment 3911I use that saying when I'm unable to get my thoughts correctly across, even in Dutch. So please forgive me, View attachment 3913 I do value your comments dearly and appriciate your compliment, thank you for that View attachment 3912
Never mind: soon no more the fear of tripping over each others sensitivites..or perceptions of!
 
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evw

Well-known member
There is no offence EVW, in the least, or even crossed my mind. I was concerned for you by what you said in thinking that you may be ”less than“ others. There is so much inequality in this world not least for women, the disabled and sections of society. The two scriptures that BKevin quoted in his reply above are exactly the issue to hand in that none of us can claim any insight of any consequence into the workings of Jehovah. If we are diligent, our salvation is to be found in our love of righteousness and all the tangents that rest upon that. Until clarity is given us, we should be prepared to tolerate - even welcome, and politely consider as much as we can, the opinion of others as they do so for us. That and an appreciation of the Holy Spirit and its values are what keeps the doors of communication and healthy argument open and the trolls on the run. In the interim between now and the end of this system, we should place our faith in Jehovah and celebrate His love for us by grasping it with both hands, one to one, and not allow ourselves to feel “less than“ certain that somehow, we are of less value than our peers, or the sparrow that falls to earth - for that is counted by Jehovah too and noted for its contribution. As I said, you perhaps should join in with your contributions as they are important and add to the flow of spiritual insight. Even then, our only value is if we can share the essence of the Spirit, for of our own thinking, there is little that can enlighten others. The spirit speaks that way, even through donkeys that turn to their master and ask why they are being beaten by them, when there is clearly something hindering its progress that they should see? Being a donkey is a good job to have - not only does one get enlightened as to the road ahead, but also get to have the master sitting on their back showing them the way into the holy city? Donkey-type humility is a strength if genuinely seeking of its oft painful practice in exchange for the long term value of acquiring a place amongst equally humble people. It’s not a weakness, but can be if not fully understood. We all choose to sit on the lowest table, in acknowledgment that it is our rightful place. We sit with each other. So you/we/me are of equal value.
Thank you for your kind words; I will save them and try to remember them, when I feel again 'out of my league' so to speak ;)
 

DavidCJ

Well-known member

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member

Infrared thermometer built into the phone. I wonder if this is going to turn into detecting vaccinated vs non-vaccinated with tracking features?
Don’t buy one! You can get a hand held thermometer which can take your temperature in any orifice you like - the google pixel 8 can’t do that….though I suppose it could if you shoved it hard enough!
 
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