Open Question From A Reader: When do the 42 Months Begin and End?

Reading Re 13, it looks like the beast ascends out of the sea only in the Lord's day, or loosely in our time, which therefore may not have quite happened yet, because it is said to be given 'authority over every nation,' which is not ostensibly in evidence yet, although strangely it seems that some invisible hand is causing the whole world to go along with this covid / vax nonsense, even if it is against their national interest to do so, which could be this incipient beast that is yet to receive its sword stroke and from which it then needs to recover to full power again; unfortunately, this seems to involve still quite some time, but we are definitely already off to a bad start with this global covid scam, but 'the end is not yet.'
Hey Cuz Way off topic. I can't find the list of reasons you gave that shows the presence is not yet. Vs in James was in the list, and "whenever you do this you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord until he comes" Can you recall what thread that was on? Cheers. I'll keep looking.
 
If there is to be a period of 42 month to 'begin after the beast recovers from the mortal wound and goes off to make war against the holy ones,' then why can't this be the 3.5 years of the great tribulation?

Why does the 'death stroke' on the beast have to be the 'great tribulation,' which I think it isn't, but 3.5 years preliminary to it?
Hello Posstot. Apparently, you are correct here in what is quoted. Also, your post #93 is excellent reasoning.

Death-stroke 7th head of beast (Pre-Trib)
Russia/Ukraine starts WW3?, few nukes used, power grid goes down, money disappears, supply chains break., governments cease to function, nothing short of the collapse of civilization.

10 kings give their power to beast healing it and it becomes 8th king (Trib)
Rev 17:13 Rev 13:5, Rev 11:2, Luke 21:24
The time (42-months) of great distress (great tribulation) begins. The 8th king will kill or put into captivity any that will not follow/worship it. True Christians will not follow/worship it, this results in them washing their robes clean. This is how the great crowd comes out of the tribulation. All those that follow/worship the 8th king will be killed after the 42-months.

It is worth noting that during the events that cause the death-stroke, they come upon all, those that will prove to follow the 8th king, and those that who will refuse too. There is no particular crowd said to come out of those events, all that do not die as a result of those events come out of that time. There is no being forced to worship the beast or not during that time. No refining, proving faithful, washing robes as a result of those events. There is no direct trampling of Christians during that time and Luke makes it clear that it is during the time of great distress that they will be trampled. That would indicate that the consequences for not following/worshipping the 8th king is what the tribulation/trampling is for Christians. It is on account of the chosen ones that the tribulation has to have a time limit, otherwise they would all be killed off.

So, while the (Pre-Trib) events that cause the death-stroke are distressing, they are not what the 'great tribulation/great distress' actually is, and that is the time that Jerusalem will be trampled on for 42-months for not following/worshipping the 8th king.

Being that Jesus is said to come after the tribulation and being that the tribulation is the 42-months, this means that he comes after the 42-months, not before.

wer wird der erste sein, frage ich mich
 
Hello Posstot. Apparently, you are correct here in what is quoted. Also, your post #93 is excellent reasoning.

Death-stroke 7th head of beast (Pre-Trib)
Russia/Ukraine starts WW3?, few nukes used, power grid goes down, money disappears, supply chains break., governments cease to function, nothing short of the collapse of civilization.


wer wird der erste sein, frage ich mich
Here is my question, which may seem sarcastic but it isn’t. It is my real question. Why does it matter if the GT is prior or during the 42 months? Will it change your behavior or your worship? Will that understanding help you to make better decisions? Will that understanding change or improve your relationship with Jehovah? Will it help you to better survive or improve your faith? I do believe that it is God’s will for us to have an accurate understanding of scripture, but when does it become nit picking? I apologize if this seems rude, but it is my honest question although probably quite direct or blunt.
 
Hello Posstot. Apparently, you are correct here in what is quoted. Also, your post #93 is excellent reasoning.

Death-stroke 7th head of beast (Pre-Trib)
Russia/Ukraine starts WW3?, few nukes used, power grid goes down, money disappears, supply chains break., governments cease to function, nothing short of the collapse of civilization.

10 kings give their power to beast healing it and it becomes 8th king (Trib)
Rev 17:13 Rev 13:5, Rev 11:2, Luke 21:24
The time (42-months) of great distress (great tribulation) begins. The 8th king will kill or put into captivity any that will not follow/worship it. True Christians will not follow/worship it, this results in them washing their robes clean. This is how the great crowd comes out of the tribulation. All those that follow/worship the 8th king will be killed after the 42-months.

It is worth noting that during the events that cause the death-stroke, they come upon all, those that will prove to follow the 8th king, and those that who will refuse too. There is no particular crowd said to come out of those events, all that do not die as a result of those events come out of that time. There is no being forced to worship the beast or not during that time. No refining, proving faithful, washing robes as a result of those events. There is no direct trampling of Christians during that time and Luke makes it clear that it is during the time of great distress that they will be trampled. That would indicate that the consequences for not following/worshipping the 8th king is what the tribulation/trampling is for Christians. It is on account of the chosen ones that the tribulation has to have a time limit, otherwise they would all be killed off.

So, while the (Pre-Trib) events that cause the death-stroke are distressing, they are not what the 'great tribulation/great distress' actually is, and that is the time that Jerusalem will be trampled on for 42-months for not following/worshipping the 8th king.

Being that Jesus is said to come after the tribulation and being that the tribulation is the 42-months, this means that he comes after the 42-months, not before.

wer wird der erste sein, frage ich mich
Bist du Deutsh oder kann einfach Deutsch sprechen?
 
Hey Cuz Way off topic. I can't find the list of reasons you gave that shows the presence is not yet. Vs in James was in the list, and "whenever you do this you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord until he comes" Can you recall what thread that was on? Cheers. I'll keep looking.

It is the first page of this thread:

Scriptures to explain Jesus’s return​

 
I thought the appointed times of the nations was from the time the eighth King appeared until the Christ destroyed him?

What I say now is a bit tentative, but I would probably connect the 'ascending out of the sea' of the wild beast in Re 13:1 with the 'leader that is coming' in Da 9:26,27, who half way through his seven year rule will set up the disgusting thing causing desolation to Christianity, although being in a covenant with the apostate part of it since the start of his rule; there seem to be these two separate but contiguous time periods of 3.5 years prior to the coming of Christ for His presence, although Robert seems to see a 42 month period following His coming - this is where we differ so far.
 
Why does it matter if the GT is prior or during the 42 months? I do believe that it is God’s will for us to have an accurate understanding of scripture,
I believe you answered your own question.

An accurate understanding of this matters in order to know when Jesus comes. He is said to come after the days of the tribulation. If it is said that the tribulation occurs first and then the 42-months occur, then it can be said Jesus will come at the beginning of the 42-months. But if you have an accurate understanding of Scripture and you understand that the tribulation is the 42-months, then Jesus would be said to come after the 42-months. It matters because Jesus warns about many saying he is here when he is indeed not. He said not to listen to them. The convenient way that is used to mislead those to believe that he is here is by claiming that he is here invisibly, or he is visible, but only to them, not you. But Jesus compared our knowing he was here with us seeing lighting. When you see it, you don't need someone to tell you that you saw it, you know for yourself.

The takeaway is that Jesus comes after the tribulation, so it is best to know accurately what the tribulation is. Also, he said that his coming will be as when you see lighting, knowing for yourself what you see. That rules out listening to those that are saying he is here invisibly or that he is only visible to certain ones, so listen to them, because they see him even though you can't.

21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the coming of the Son of man will be.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.
 
Here is my question, which may seem sarcastic but it isn’t. It is my real question. Why does it matter if the GT is prior or during the 42 months? Will it change your behavior or your worship? Will that understanding help you to make better decisions? Will that understanding change or improve your relationship with Jehovah? Will it help you to better survive or improve your faith? I do believe that it is God’s will for us to have an accurate understanding of scripture, but when does it become nit picking? I apologize if this seems rude, but it is my honest question although probably quite direct or blunt.

These are the two possible scenarios, where both sides agree that Jesus comes after the great tribulation:

#1) Hypothesis: the death stroke is the great tribulation;
Conclusion: world rulership after the death stroke is by Jesus.

#2) Hypothesis: the death stroke is not the great tribulation;
Conclusion: world rulership after the death stroke is not by Jesus, but by the revived beast that mimics God's kingdom for 42 month and misleads all but the chosen ones.

So what is the difference between these two scenarios?

Unless you are really one of the chosen ones, belief in scenario #2 is very likely to result in your mistaking the uniting of mankind immediately after the, what you take as the great tribulation - under the 'benevolent rule' of the 'angel of light' - as being the invisible manifestation of Christ's kingdom on earth, leading to your eternal destruction.

These are brute facts, because facts do not care about our feelings.
 
In trying to figure out what the great tribulation actually is, we need to think about what it means to be so 'great' as not to have occurred before, nor to ever occur again.

We are already given a hint, in that it is to be on 'Jerusalem,' meaning, 'a holy place,' which, in turn, is interpreted for us as 'this people' upon whom 'justice is to be meted out' according to 'all the things written' in prophetic Scripture. Lu 21:20-24

This means that it is the greatest tribulation or persecution of God's people ever, in both past and future, not the greatest calamity to occur to mankind at large.

How does the flood of Noah compare to the great tribulation?
How does the flood compare to the sword stroke?
Did a great crowd that no one was able to number survive Noah's flood?
Is the sword stroke on the beast so great that afterward there is no "all the earth" left to 'follow it with admiration? Re 13:3

Hence, both the great tribulation and the sword stroke - although they are two different events - are nothing compared to the calamity for mankind that was the flood of Noah, which wiped out almost all mankind, which can only mean that the great tribulation will be the greatest persecution of God's people - loosely defined - to ever have happened, dwarfing the 70 AD sacking of Jerusalem.
 
I believe you answered your own question.

An accurate understanding of this matters in order to know when Jesus comes. He is said to come after the days of the tribulation. If it is said that the tribulation occurs first and then the 42-months occur, then it can be said Jesus will come at the beginning of the 42-months. But if you have an accurate understanding of Scripture and you understand that the tribulation is the 42-months, then Jesus would be said to come after the 42-months. It matters because Jesus warns about many saying he is here when he is indeed not. He said not to listen to them. The convenient way that is used to mislead those to believe that he is here is by claiming that he is here invisibly, or he is visible, but only to them, not you. But Jesus compared our knowing he was here with us seeing lighting. When you see it, you don't need someone to tell you that you saw it, you know for yourself.

The takeaway is that Jesus comes after the tribulation, so it is best to know accurately what the tribulation is. Also, he said that his coming will be as when you see lighting, knowing for yourself what you see. That rules out listening to those that are saying he is here invisibly or that he is only visible to certain ones, so listen to them, because they see him even though you can't.

21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the coming of the Son of man will be.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.
Thank you. I see I have a lot more studying to do.
 
In trying to figure out what the great tribulation actually is, we need to think about what it means to be so 'great' as not to have occurred before, nor to ever occur again.

We are already given a hint, in that it is to be on 'Jerusalem,' meaning, 'a holy place,' which, in turn, is interpreted for us as 'this people' upon whom 'justice is to be meted out' according to 'all the things written' in prophetic Scripture. Lu 21:20-24

This means that it is the greatest tribulation or persecution of God's people ever, in both past and future, not the greatest calamity to occur to mankind at large.

How does the flood of Noah compare to the great tribulation?
How does the flood compare to the sword stroke?
Did a great crowd that no one was able to number survive Noah's flood?
Is the sword stroke on the beast so great that afterward there is no "all the earth" left to 'follow it with admiration? Re 13:3

Hence, both the great tribulation and the sword stroke - although they are two different events - are nothing compared to the calamity for mankind that was the flood of Noah, which wiped out almost all mankind, which can only mean that the great tribulation will be the greatest persecution of God's people - loosely defined - to ever have happened, dwarfing the 70 AD sacking of Jerusalem.
Thank you. I’m going to have to spend time breaking down these scriptures so that I can be sure.
 
In trying to figure out what the great tribulation actually is, we need to think about what it means to be so 'great' as not to have occurred before, nor to ever occur again.

We are already given a hint, in that it is to be on 'Jerusalem,' meaning, 'a holy place,' which, in turn, is interpreted for us as 'this people' upon whom 'justice is to be meted out' according to 'all the things written' in prophetic Scripture. Lu 21:20-24

This means that it is the greatest tribulation or persecution of God's people ever, in both past and future, not the greatest calamity to occur to mankind at large.

Interesting points you are making. It makes me think of the following.

Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation+ such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.+

Joel 2:2 It is a day of darkness and gloom,+ A day of clouds and thick gloom,+ Like light of dawn spreading out on the mountains. There is a people numerous and mighty;+ Never before has there been one like it, And never again will there be another Through the years of all generations.

Joel 2:17 Between the porch and the altar+ Let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say:‘ Do feel pity, O Jehovah, for your people; Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, Letting the nations rule over them. Why should the peoples say, “Where is their God?”’+

Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations;+ and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled.+

Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city+ underfoot for 42 months.+

Joel 3:1 “For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,+ 2 I will also gather together all the nations And bring them down to the Valley* of Je·hoshʹa·phat.* I will enter into judgment with them there+ In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations, And they divided up my land among themselves.+
 
Interesting points you are making. It makes me think of the following.

Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation+ such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.+

Joel 2:2 It is a day of darkness and gloom,+ A day of clouds and thick gloom,+ Like light of dawn spreading out on the mountains. There is a people numerous and mighty;+ Never before has there been one like it, And never again will there be another Through the years of all generations.

Joel 2:17 Between the porch and the altar+ Let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say:‘ Do feel pity, O Jehovah, for your people; Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, Letting the nations rule over them. Why should the peoples say, “Where is their God?”’+

Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations;+ and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled.+

Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city+ underfoot for 42 months.+

Joel 3:1 “For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,+ 2 I will also gather together all the nations And bring them down to the Valley* of Je·hoshʹa·phat.* I will enter into judgment with them there+ In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations, And they divided up my land among themselves.+

Good point of bringing Joel up in this context.

When the disciples asked Jesus about the sign of His coming for the purpose of being present, they associated, in His answer, the destruction of Jerusalem with the end of every other ruling power here on earth, because of knowing the prophets where this is always the sequence of events.

Hence, we too, in our time, and the final fulfillment of this prophecy, need to distinguish between the end of the Christian, religious system and the end of the revived beast system of things, where Christianity will be sacked by the revived beast just like Jerusalem and the Jewish system was wiped out by the Romans.
 
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In trying to figure out what the great tribulation actually is, we need to think about what it means to be so 'great' as not to have occurred before, nor to ever occur again.

We are already given a hint, in that it is to be on 'Jerusalem,' meaning, 'a holy place,' which, in turn, is interpreted for us as 'this people' upon whom 'justice is to be meted out' according to 'all the things written' in prophetic Scripture. Lu 21:20-24

This means that it is the greatest tribulation or persecution of God's people ever, in both past and future, not the greatest calamity to occur to mankind at large.

How does the flood of Noah compare to the great tribulation?
How does the flood compare to the sword stroke?
Did a great crowd that no one was able to number survive Noah's flood?
Is the sword stroke on the beast so great that afterward there is no "all the earth" left to 'follow it with admiration? Re 13:3

Hence, both the great tribulation and the sword stroke - although they are two different events - are nothing compared to the calamity for mankind that was the flood of Noah, which wiped out almost all mankind, which can only mean that the great tribulation will be the greatest persecution of God's people - loosely defined - to ever have happened, dwarfing the 70 AD sacking of Jerusalem.
70 AD was quite unsettling that one can only imagine what a greater tribulations might be. Here's some notes from Josephus who bared witness to the accounts.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21
A preview of what's to come on a grander scale worldwide .
An excerpt from bible hub.
There shall be great tribulation - The word "tribulation" means calamity or "suffering." Luke 21:24 has specified in what this tribulation would consist: "They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled." That is, until the time allotted for the Gentiles "to do it" shall be fully accomplished, or as long as God is pleased to suffer them to do it.

The first thing mentioned by Luke is, that they should fall "by the edge of the sword" - that is, would be slain in war, as the sword was then principally used in war. This was most strikingly fulfilled. Josephus, in describing it, uses almost the very words of our Saviour. "All the calamities, says he, which had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world" were but small in comparison with those of the Jews. - Jewish Wars, b. i. preface, section 4.

He has given the following account of one part of the massacre when the city was taken: "And now, rushing into the city, they slew whomsoever they found, without distinction, and burned the houses and all the people who had fled into them; and when they entered for the sake of plunder, they found whole families of dead persons, and houses full of carcasses destroyed by famine, then they came out with their hands empty. And though they thus pitied the dead, they had not the same emotion for the living, but killed all they met, whereby they filled the lanes with dead bodies. "The whole city ran with blood," insomuch that many things which were burning were extinguished by the blood." - "Jewish Wars," b. 6 chapter 8, section 5; chapter 9, section 2, 3. He adds that in the siege of Jerusalem not fewer than "eleven hundred thousand" perished (Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 9, section 3) - a number almost half as great as are in the whole city of London. In the adjacent provinces no fewer than "two hundred and fifty thousand" are reckoned to have been slain; making in all whose deaths were ascertained the almost incredible number of "one million three hundred and fifty thousand" who were put to death.

These were not, indeed, all slain with the sword. Many were crucified. "Many hundreds," says Josephus ("Jewish Wars," b. v. chapter 11, section 1), "were first whipped, then tormented with various kinds of tortures, and finally crucified; the Roman soldiers nailing them (out of the wrath and hatred they bore to the Jews), one after one way and another after another, to crosses, "by way of jest," until at length the multitude became so great that room was lacking for crosses, and crosses for the bodies." So terribly was their imprecation fulfilled - "his blood be on us and on our children," Matthew 27:25. If it be asked how it was possible for so many people to be slain in a single city, it is to be remembered that the siege of Jerusalem commenced during the time of the Passover, when all the males of the Jews were required to be there, and when it is estimated that more than "three million" were usually assembled. See Josephus, Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 9, section 3, 4.

A horrible instance of the distress of Jerusalem is related by Josephus. The famine during the siege became so great that they ate what the most sordid animals refused to touch. A woman of distinguished rank, having been plundered by the soldiers, in hunger, rage, and despair, killed and roasted her own babe, and had eaten one half of it before the deed was discovered. - Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 3, section 3, 4. This cruel and dreadful act was also in fulfillment of prophecy, Deuteronomy 28:53, Deuteronomy 28:56-57.

Another thing added by Luke Luk 21:24, was, that "they should be led away captive into all nations." Josephus informs us that the captives taken during the whole war amounted to "ninety-seven thousand." The tall and handsome young men Titus reserved for triumph; of the rest, many were distributed through the Roman provinces to be destroyed by wild beasts in theaters; many were sent to the works in Egypt; many, especially those under seventeen years of age, were sold for slaves. - Jewish Wars, b. vi. chapter 9, section 2, 3.
 

More food for thought...​

How long is judgment day?​

QUESTION: When Christ returns to judge the billions of people for life or death, will it not take years, if not decades, to accomplish this feat/deed?
No. The Scriptures refer to it as “that day,” as in the Lord’s day, or Jehovah’s day —indicating that it is a relatively short period of time, as is a 24 hour day.

Basically, what people do now will determine their fate “in that day” anyway. For example, Jesus indicated that the majority of people (The “many” contrasted with the “few.”) who profess to be Christians are not recognized by the Lord as such. In the seventh chapter of Matthew Jesus illustrated it this way: “Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

So, according to Jesus the many, who prior to “that day” are satisfied with their faith and self-assured of their salvation, will have no standing before Jesus when the judgment begins.

The Scriptures, in fact, reveal the length of the judgment phase. It is the time, times and half a time prophetic period found in Daniel and Revelation, also expressed as 42 months and 1,260 days. In other words, three and a half years.

Unfortunately, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been deprived of this knowledge by the Watchtower’s cockamamie 1914 doctrine. Supposedly the 42 month period began during the First World War, ending in 1919. As recently as 2014 the Watchtower repeated this nonsensical drivel in the Questions from Readers column.

The truth is —the two witnesses only come on the scene in the post-preaching era. That is why they are dressed in sackcloth, which harmonizes with the prophecy of Joel, which is a vivid depiction of the end of the Christian preaching, teaching and disciple-making work. That is why in Joel “the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, are in mourning. The field has been devastated, the ground mourns; for the grain has been devastated, the new wine has dried up, the oil has failed.” —Joel 1:9-10

“The field” symbolizes exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to as the field. The next verse is even more explicit, saying: “Farmers are dismayed, vinedressers wail, because of the wheat and the barley; for the harvest of the field has perished.” The farmers and vinedressers are not literal agriculture workers. They symbolize the millions of publishers and pioneers who go into the field service on a daily basis. Suddenly, though, disaster stikes. Then, whatever is in the field is lost. That is what is to occur to commence the judgment period.

That is evident by what is stated further on in Joel: “Put on sackcloth and mourn, you priests; wail, you ministers of the altar. Come in and spend the night in sackcloth, you ministers of my God; for grain offering and drink offering have been withheld from the house of your God. Proclaim a fast; call for a solemn assembly. Gather the elders together, with all the inhabitants of the land, to the house of Jehovah your God, and cry to Jehovah for help. Woe because of the day! For the day of Jehovah is near, and it will come like a destruction from the Almighty!”

The Watchtower’s embarrassingly ridiculous interpretation of Joel aside, obviously the priests and ministers of Jehovah are not the clergy of Christendom. They represent anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses who will find themselves overtaken in an unanticipated disaster. Having been led to believe they will be bystanders to the judgment, they will find themselves confronted with it. Hence, the sackcloth.

Back to the two witnesses who prophesy in sackcloth for 1,260 days; their prophesying is in connection with the coming of Christ; no, not that he is coming, but that he has come. They give witness to the fact that they have seen Christ face-to-face. That is what the parousia is all about. That is what the transfiguration vision prefigured, in which Moses and Elijah appeared.

Moses and Elijah are alluded to as the two witnesses. Although not named as such, the fact that the two witnesses perform the same miracles as did Moses and Elijah ought to make the transfiguration connection apparent.

The significance of the appearance of two witnesses is that the world will be judged on the basis of their treatment of them. And, Revelation reveals that the resurrected beast will not only war against the two anointed witnesses, it will kill them. As a result: “Those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not allow their corpses to be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and celebrate, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.”

Not being interred is considered the worst indignity. So, the peoples, tribes, tongues and nations not allowing their corpses to be buried symbolizes that the world will express their contempt for God’s messengers. They will not view the deaths of Christ’s brothers as any loss. They will rejoice and celebrate, just as they would if Jesus himself had been put to death.

And as Jesus indicated in his illustration of the sheep and the goats, the treatment of his brothers in their lowly state is the basis for judgment of the nations. What is done to them is as if done directly to Jesus, personally.

The deaths of the two witnesses will not take place over an extended period, but at the conclusion of the 42 months. And it is in that context that the scripture says that God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth.

At the end of the prophesying of the two witnesses all of the 144,000 will be with Christ in heaven. The new covenant will then be concluded. That is why the last verse in the 11th chapter of Revelation says: “And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.”

Related Posts​

 
My understanding on the matter.

The tribulation of those days are the Seals being opened and the apocalyptic Horsemen are on the move in Revelations chapter 6 however those days are cut short or no flesh would be saved. Revelation
https://www.jw.org/en/libra...

Now immediately after the tribulations of those days the Sun the moon the stars will grow dark / crash - meaning the whole worldly political social system would have come to a complete obliteration thus making room for the 8th King to be put in place and I believe that's when the 42 months starts and culminates at Armageddon .

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken>

Excerpted from- What is the Battle of Armageddon?
First, the great tribulation does not culminate at Armageddon. Jesus said very plainly that God will intervene to cut short the great tribulation, so there is an "interim" between the end of the tribulation and the war of the great day of God Almighty at the place called Armageddon.
To be sure, God will cut the tribulation short on account of the chosen ones. During the 42 month interval, those who have seen Christ will serve as his witnesses—symbolized in Revelation as the two witnesses. In Zechariah, (footnoted with the two witnesses in the
NWT) the two witnesses are said to be standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth. Are they in heaven? No. Revelation indicates they are very much on earth, being stalked by the beast. In what sense, then, are they standing next to the Lord of the whole earth? Turn it around—if they are standing next to the Lord of the world then the Lord is also standing next to them. And what does parousia mean in Greek? Here is what the Insight book states: Read more> https://e-watchman.com/what-is-the-battle-of-armageddon/#comment-5693466326
Excerpted from -

What takes place with the unsealing of the Apocalypse?​

Christ unseals the scroll in a timely fashion we may expect the outbreak of global war, food shortages, earthquakes and pandemics to be the beginning pangs of distress that will build in intensity and lead directly into the time of great distress, also known as the great tribulation, at which point God intervenes to cut it short in order to prevent the extinction of mankind.

Since the ouster of Satan and the demons takes place immediately following the coming to power of the kingdom, which is what is symbolized by the opening of the first seal, the foretold “woe for the earth and sea” commensurate with their being hurled down to the earth must therefore coincide with the beginning pangs of distress and culminate with the great tribulation.

But rather than transpiring over the course of many decades the time of the end appears to be three and a half years in duration. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/unsealing-apocalypse/
 
21 for then there will be great tribulation+ such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.+

5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.+ 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies+ against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven.+ 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,+ and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue* and nation.

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+....13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+
 
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These are the two possible scenarios, where both sides agree that Jesus comes after the great tribulation:

#1) Hypothesis: the death stroke is the great tribulation;
Conclusion: world rulership after the death stroke is by Jesus.

#2) Hypothesis: the death stroke is not the great tribulation;
Conclusion: world rulership after the death stroke is not by Jesus, but by the revived beast that mimics God's kingdom for 42 month and misleads all but the chosen ones.

So what is the difference between these two scenarios?

Unless you are really one of the chosen ones, belief in scenario #2 is very likely to result in your mistaking the uniting of mankind immediately after the, what you take as the great tribulation - under the 'benevolent rule' of the 'angel of light' - as being the invisible manifestation of Christ's kingdom on earth, leading to your eternal destruction.

These are brute facts, because facts do not care about our feelings.
Hi Posstot, I’ve been trying to understand your hypothesis but I just cannot see the connection. I don’t see anything that would specifically say that the death stroke is or isn’t the GT. I think it would make sense that it would be a part of or a component of the GT. Because if the money system, food supply system, energy system, medical systems etc fail, then it would stand to reason, at least my way of thinking, that could result in the collapse of government. People in general are reliant on some way on the government, even if it is just having street lights working so that you can safely drive a car. So, I think we are not in agreement with the basic premise you are stating and I would need to see some scriptural evidence of that. Another issue with the hypothesis is that world rulership, after the revival of the beast from the seeming death stroke, is or is not by Jesus. I think the bible clearly states that the 8th beast does come to power and wages war on the chosen ones during the 3.5 years and then kills them. So, there’s something I‘m not grasping about your hypothesis. But I don’t want to get into the weeds with you unless you want to continue the discussion. Thank you for taking the time to help me and if you do want to continue, please let’s breakdown, scripturally one premise or point at a time.
 
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Hi Posstot, I’ve been trying to understand your hypothesis but I just cannot see the connection. I don’t see anything that would specifically say that the death stroke is or isn’t the GT. I think it would make sense that it would be a part of or a component of the GT. Because if the money system, food supply system, energy system, medical systems etc fail, then it would stand to reason, at least my way of thinking, that could result in the collapse of government. People in general are reliant on some way on the government, even if it is just having street lights working so that you can safely drive a car. So, I think we are not in agreement with the basic premise you are stating and I would need to see some scriptural evidence of that. Another issue with the hypothesis is that world rulership, after the revival of the beast from the seeming death stroke, is or is not by Jesus. I think the bible clearly states that the 8th beast does come to power and wages war on the chosen ones during the 3.5 years and then kills them. So, there’s something I‘m not grasping about your hypothesis. But I don’t want to get into the weeds with you unless you want to continue the discussion. Thank you for taking the time to help me and if you do want to continue, please let’s breakdown, scripturally one premise or point at a time.

If the coming of Christ is not visible to everybody, as a literal reading of Scripture would suggest, then everybody is dependent on the 'say so' of those who claim to have seen Him return; so how would you know, after some global, cataclysmic event whether you are now in Jehovah's new system, and had better follow orders, or whether it is a deception, and you are still in Satan's imitation 'new world' and need to resist to the death?

A recent WT mag touches on this; you can read it on the thread

My Study​

page 4, post #64,

*** w22 February pp. 6-7 Do You Trust in Jehovah’s Way of Doing Things? ***

paragraph 18, when read in context illustrates my point, if you get it.
 
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